Free Will & Choice,,, do we really have it ?

[Dm7]

Not until recent, I have indeed learned that I have neither absolute free will or unfree will, because that my will is ALREADY there with a predetermined ending no matter what I choose... the chosen path will always lead me to that predetermined destiny.

Like Jeff said, will is strongly INTERGRATED in personality itself! And personality only can come from two factors - nature (genes) and nurture (environment)! So our will is already coded in our gene and we are driven to choose things that satisify our strong drive(s)! Whenever those drives are awaken, they are unpleasant and we seek any way to relieve them! Our drives are CODED in our genes as well! Our conscious holder (brain) are too!

Everything are coded; thus, the pre-determined destiny, but yet we possess the ability of being able to choose! Wait! You probably are saying, "If we have ability to choose... we have free will!" But are our choices completely chosen on our own will even if it's against the personality that identifies who we are? We have our physiology needs that when they are aroused, we are DRIVEN to reduce our aroused needs... no matter what we do! You could choose not to satiate your need, but eventually you will have to confront with it again and give in! We are DRIVEN to make certain choices... even though we think we can change our outcome... not! Our life has its blueprint with some flexiblity like game, but it always meet the same ending... your pre-determined destiny!

However, it doesn't mean that we can't choose! We still choose because we still want to play the "game" even though we all know that it leads to a specialized ending (for you individual). So I conclude that we do have a will, but not on absolute sides!

[philthemn]

[Jeff]

Good post DM7!

[Carnun]

[Dm7]

[Carnun]

[Dm7]

[Carnun]

[Dagger]

Image a infinitely big tree. Branches sticking out in many directions, but each branch never ending, just getting thinner and thinner as you move along them. You have a blueprint, lets call this the trunk. The branches in this tree may intersect the trunk again. But the blueprint may change, it's not something static, because all actions change every other part.

Imagine now, that you, born on this earth, have infinite possibilities of choice, but in a way, these choices are illusions, but yet real. This may be so, because since every action is realized, you branch out in litteraly billions upon billions versions of yourself. This may all be predetermined, but yet, you can experience highly diverse paths. So, you, as in the YOU that experience one timeline are not destined to have only one path set for you from birth. You are a part of action unfolding in this physical manifestation.

Image that the past and the future do not exist, except in an eternal now, you may call it a waveform if you like. There is not only infinite timelines, your past actions may be influenced by your future actions, and your future actions may be influenced by your past actions. The first word you uttered sings in eternity, it never ends, but the moment may be influenced by every other part, whenever, wherever.

This is just how I look at it, or can explain it at this moment. It may or probably will change as I experience and learn more.

[Manko]

imagine strong wind blowing at your branches and wreck it totaly, that is social pressure, physical pressure (laws of existance equal reality), economic pressure, you have some free will in choosing which cloth to dress, but there is no real free will even ilusional, someone pointed out expirience personal.
Yes you can't even dream things that never happened or saw or heard, it is complicated but I don't believe in some larger size free will.
I said imagine one number or color type free will may seem to exist.
Or I can make you imagine some color or number or shape.

[AstareGod]

a lot of people said that their will depends on their environment. but don't you have free will to change your environment? change your environment, change your will.

if you CHOOSE to limit your will based on consequences, you are not actually limiting your will, you are CHOOSING less options. you do not choose these options because of your original CHOICE to think about consequence, but those options are still available

get it?

i also like the tree/branches idea. that one's good.

[Kava]

If you think about it, we dont have freewill in our dreams, inless there LD, and there is a then line between dreaming, and waking. Thats why its so hard to LD. So I dont think we have freewill, but we never know about our predetermaned future, so it apears we do have freewill, so eather way...

[Nazca]

If we don't have freewill I'd rather not know. Of course, if it IS true, then it really doesn't matter, because all of my opinions and feelings on the subject are predetermined...

So if it's the truth without hope or a lie where you think you can choose to make a difference, I'll take the lie most of the time.

[JL4236]

This topic was discussed on another site I was looking at just a couple of days ago.

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If the reality in which we find ourselves is closely examined, it is plain to see that one is not free in any sense of the word. Even if the universe is interpreted through any one of a religious, scientific or purely logical looking glass, the deterministic nature of existence remains.

The first mode in which existence can be analyzed is as a creation of a supreme being. In this scenario, the creator is associated with several grand characteristics, the most important and relevant of which being “all-knowing”. In this situation, the Creator has knowledge of everything that will ever and has ever happened down to the finest detail. Not only does the supreme being know what you will have for dinner tonight, but the exact positions and velocities of electrons orbiting atoms that make up Jupiter’s atmosphere, the exact temperature of the most isolated planet in our galaxy and every thought that you have ever thought and will ever think. Therefore, if all choices that an individual will ever make are already known, they are not choices at all. We, as individuals, are simply following paths that were laid before us when the universe was first brought into existence. If one were to defy this path by choosing an alternative, it would contradict the basic assumption that the Supreme Being is all-knowing. This property also logically confines the creator itself to a determined existence since it is already aware of any decisions that it is to make in the future. In the religious view of reality there is no room for free will of any kind, all events from now to the end of time are subject to the deterministic framework set up by the divine creator.

There is another explanation of the origin of the universe circulating through scientific circles, most commonly referred to as the Big Bang. In this view, all matter and energy along with the space and time to contain them burst into existence in one instant approximately 14 billion years ago. From that moment on, all of history was simply the playing out of subatomic particles according to some basic chemical and physical laws. That model does not change when intelligence is added into the mix. The body and mind of every individual is nothing more than a complex physical system. Bodies break down into organs, organs into cells, cells into molecules, molecules into atoms, atoms into protons, neutrons and electrons. The subatomic particles that make up our brains are not exempt from the laws of physics and chemistry and so we are helpless to direct them. If one “decides” to open their mouth, every part of that action from the electrical activity in the brain to the contraction of the muscle can be explained in terms of chemical reactions. The body can simply be viewed as an ongoing chemical reaction. Any perception of “choice” is actually an illusion that masks the true cause of the action, a very complex web of cause and effect and cause relationships. All of which are as predictable as gravity if all of the inputs to the equation are known. Every future thought, feeling, and action of every individual are completely knowable, and therefore determined, if one has access to the entire set of initial conditions present at the beginning of existence.

Lastly, support for the deterministic worldview lies in the plain fact that each unique cause must have a unique effect. This concept is best illustrated through a simple thought experiment. Imagine yourself faced with a choice, you are in the cafe at lunch time and can have either a muffin or an apple for dessert. Both options lie before you, which do you choose? After thinking for a few seconds, you decide that your health is important to you and choose the apple accordingly. As you make the decision, take note of the details of the situation that you are in; your mood, your level of hunger, the thoughts running through your mind, and your mother’s nagging voice telling you to eat your fruit in the back of your mind. Even take note of physical details such as the current air temperature and aromas wafting thorough the air. These are all factors that go into the decision you have made to eat the apple. Now imagine that those few seconds, in which you made the decision, are erased from existence. You are faced with the same decision again (without the knowledge of having already made the choice). Everything about the situation is identical down to the finest detail. Your mood, appetite and thoughts are the same, you hear your mother’s voice telling you to eat your fruit. Absolutely every detail is identical down to the position of electrons in space and the gravitational effect that the furthest star is having on you. Is it possible for you to choose the muffin this time? No. At that exact instant in time when the "choice" is made, it is physically impossible for you to 'choose' the muffin. If you were placed into those exact conditions one hundred times, you would 'choose' the apple one hundred times. This shows that every “choice” is nothing more than a product of various factors and if each factor could be measured, the outcome could be reliably predicted. In fact on a larger scale, each instant of the universe is merely a product of the instant that preceded it.

People argue that since there appear to be many options available to us at any one time, we have the ability to choose any one of these. However, do we really have these options? Options are not 'created', that would involved uncaused causes. Options are happened upon. Options that are separate from the path you follow are impossible alternatives. They are observations, not choices. The conscious awareness of another path does not necessarily mean that you have/had the power to follow it. What it comes down to is instantaneous moments in time. At any one instant, the laws of physics dictate that only one action is possible, given any set of variables. Think of a single instant in time in the universe as simply a bunch of variables, these variables are all part of a fundamental equation that determine the next instant. This new instant determines the next instant, and so on and so forth. There is no room for "decision" within the most fundamental clockwork of the universe, it's as mechanical as the watch on your wrist. Can your watch choose to to continue or stop ticking?

The illusion of choice in our daily lives is a very powerful one. At every turn we are faced with various enticing 'options' and lead ourselves to believe that we can choose the path that we desire. However, upon closer inspection of our world through any of a religious, scientific or logical perspective we see that choice is not really choice at all. We are as powerless to change the future as we are to change the past. Although this may seem like a hopeless and depressing worldview, it only requires a simple shift in attitude; we are not here to make choices but to understand them. Furthermore, accepting determinism does not mean that one should give up and let fate lead them where it may. For all practical intents and purposes the illusion of choice is a very positive influence and one should live life with a watchful eye on the 'decisions' that they are faced with.

[Bruno]