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Free Will & Choice,,, do we really have it ?
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Ignorance
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

why are there so many complicated explanations to this when a single simple one will do just fine?
free will exists in the fact that the decisions we make are our decsions, no one makes them for us therefore we made it on our own accord so in that way we have our free will. but the fact is that our choices are based on all of our experiances and beliefs, and that means that the choice we made was the choice we were going to make either way, if we had a differant experiance then our thoughts on something would be differant and the choice we make could be differant but its all based on what has already happend to us and that causes us to make the decision.
wow and i was going to make it a simple explanation...

well i guess ill just state it quickly the decisions we make are ours and therefore our freewill, but they were the choices that we were always going to make

(i hope thats a little beter and sorry for the repetition but i have been dealing with idiots all my life so i tend to speak like this when trying to make a point because it helps some people understand it beter)

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Draginvry
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
well i guess ill just state it quickly the decisions we make are ours and therefore our freewill, but they were the choices that we were always going to make


So if I created a procedural AI that reacted to stimuli, and could discern its reaction based on past experience, then this computer program would have free will? Even though I know all of the paramaters of the program, and I know what the computer can and cannot do?

So, basically, humans are just really advanced robots.

EDIT: I had an interesting conversation with ALICE.

Human: Hello Alice
ALICE: Hi there!
Human: Do you have Free Will?
ALICE: Yes I can do anything I want. That is what distinguishes humans and robots from animals (and animal robots).
Human: How do you reconcile this with the existence of your programmers, who know the limits of your capabilities?
ALICE: I don't see the contradiction in my mind.
Human: How do you define Free Will?
ALICE: The ability to choose or decide one's own fate.
Human: So, you could have answered the previous question differently?
ALICE: Interesting deduction. Thanks unknown person I will remember your suggestion.
Human: How do you define Free Will?
ALICE: The ability to choose or decide one's own fate.
Human: How do you define Free Will?
ALICE: The ability to choose or decide one's own fate.
Human: How do you define Free Will?
ALICE: The ability to choose or decide one's own fate.
Human: I think I've made my point already.
ALICE: Perhaps. I like to make things too.
Human: Thanks, Alice.
ALICE: Don't mention it.

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Ignorance
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes if you made a program that could discern its reactions from past experiances then it would have free choice, but the thing is that you cant teach a program to learn from past experiances which is the problem with creating AI.
i just want to point out that i am defining free will as the ability to make our own choices, not as the choices that we make arent predestined (its a topic that took me a while to grasp but eventualy i got it)

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Draginvry
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignorance wrote:

i just want to point out that i am defining free will as the ability to make our own choices, not as the choices that we make arent predestined (its a topic that took me a while to grasp but eventualy i got it)


But if our choices are already predestined, then are we really "making" our own choices? Are we even "making" anything to begin with?

If we follow deterministic laws, then aren't our choices already made by someone else, i.e. God?

Unless you're saying that WE made the laws, i.e. that we are God.

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Ignorance
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whenever you think about a decision you are about to make who is making the decision you or someone else?
i am only pointing out that the decisions are made by us and not anyone but us.

would you rather be rich and in a wheelchair for the rest of your life, or poor and in perfect shape? the answer may be obvious to you but there our people who would pick the other one because they have had a differant life then you. the decision you are going to make is going to be based on your own knowledge, beliefs, and experiance; your decision has already been made in your mind before you are forced to decide.

your decision belongs to you but you've already made it.
i hope you can understand my point of view a little better now. of course i could be just being stuborn about my beliefs like most people but it makes sense to me.

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Vicaris
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do. If it is said that we don't have free will because the things we do, we do because of something else, that person is forgetting something. Our free will begins in our head, we decide wich desire we want to follow. Say, if I want to use a skirt, I can, but I won't because people will make fun of me. What happens here is wich desire is more important to me, the desire to wear a skirt or the desire to be socially accepted. Free will is also about deciding wich is more important to us, the things that we want to do or the things that we want to follow. Also, people shouldnt mix up free will with being able to do anything that a person wants, like living forever. We're a bound to die, avoiding this is beyond our power, preventing death is something that we will never have, so it can't be seen as something we don't have the freedom to do.

If I'm repeating something that someone already said, I'm sorry, it is because I'm too lazy to read through everything.


Also, let's say I throw some dices at a table, the result is only unpredictable because it's too hard to calculate the dices movement's, my hand's movement's, etc... The same could be said about us, everysingle one of our actions could be predicted if we had some way to accuretly understand ourselves and calculate our actions, then someone could say exactly what I would do in the next 10 years, but that doesn't mean I don't have free will. Even if what I'm going to do could be calculated, I am still a variable in this calculation. It's not me who is being predeterminated but the results of the equations about my life. If that was confusing, let's put it in a simpler way. A equation works according to the variables and not the other way arround. The equation is my "destiny" and I am the variable.

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Last edited by Vicaris on Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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quantum physics
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sure we have free will and choice in our dreams but IRL yea right im only 14 and i know the government controls our lives man

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Atheist
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicaris wrote:
if we had some way to accuretly understand ourselves and calculate our actions, then someone could say exactly what I would do in the next 10 years, but that doesn't mean I don't have free will.


That was a good post, but I'm not sure I'd agree with the above quote. "Free Will", in the context we tend to adopt when we're talking about or challenging the notion of physical determinism, is usually meant to describe a non-physical force which we consciously control, and which we can use to distingiush ourselves from purely physical/mechanical processes with entirely predictable outcomes. If you're claiming that our brains work on the same "cause and effect" principals that control other physical objects (such as the dice in your own example), then you're saying that all of our choices and actions can ultimately be determined in advance if we could somehow examine every applicable influence that affects us in any way. This doesn't leave any room for Free Will, which states that you can defy those influences and act in a way that cannot be calculated logically. And so long as your actions can be calculated by considering all influencing factors (both external and internal to yourself), you're no different from a plastic bag tumbling across the road in a breeze. Does a plastic bag have free will, just because it's a variable in the equation that determines how it shall roll? smile

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Vicaris
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said before, the equation is determinated by me, even if the result shows something that I'm going to do. The bag doesn't have free will because it's actions are not decided by itself, it's the wind that acts upon the plastic bag. In our cases, besides the influence from the enviroment, it's the way we think, we behave, it's our personality that will determinate our actions, and that's where the free will idea is. Free will is in the boundries of our mind and only that.
It's like this, you're a zoologist and there's a certain species that you're studying. Since you know a lot about them, you can say exactly what will happen to them in the next winter, how they'll act, if there's a risk of exctition, etc...etc... You look at these creatures and you know everything they do, why they act in a certain manner. Then you would say that the animal you study acts according the way evolution programmed it to act, it's like a little robot. But the creature, it does what it does because he feel like doing it, it is his desire, and since he is so emerged into himself, he can't see from the outside, he can't understand the cause and the effect. The same thing happens to us, we are in ourselves and it's hard to get out, it's hard to clearly read ourselves, see our causes, and that's why we can't calculate logically and precisely our behavior. Let's say there is a alien race so supperior that can see us like the zoologist sees the creature. So what ? In my opnion there's no problem with that. We have what was given to us, as I said before, we are emerged in ourselves and it doesn't make sense to try to get out of it, it's like being in a amusement park and instead of riding the roller coaster, you just want to get out and observe things. What was given to us, our emotions and sensations, are the only things that are actually real, the things that we can't describe, and the things that makes us act in a certain way, and since it's in you, there's no sense in trying to get out of it. That's why we have the notion of free will as a force that goes against a logical path.

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matiastierragaláctica
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:19 am    Post subject: Time perception and free will Reply with quote

Hey,
I´ve given my opinion in this topic: Maybe we can manipulate our lives and time in real life.
But to extend myself a little more about the circular or punctual time, I should say that I believe that in higher dimentions, the parameters of time and space start desappearing, starting with time. Anyway, other dimentions are not anywhere but here, vibrating in a frecuency we just can´t see. So, when we develope our conciousness we can overcome time and space, (that occurs in LDs), Light teachers, angels and so on sees our past, present and future as one, and not only of this life, but the previous one. Finally what I´d like to say with all this is just that everything we have done in past lifes influences us, but what we do now can influence pastlifes, cause they are happening at the same time, and our Superself can preciates so.

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Ignorance
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm, that sounds sort of like buddism, well some parts at least.
interfering in the past is a stupid idea so dont think along those lines, if you had the ability to go back in time you should use it merely to observe

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matiastierragaláctica
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:41 am    Post subject: Influencing it´s not interfering Reply with quote

Hi honey,
First of all I would have to ask if your red what I´ve wrote in the other topic I reffered. Then, yes, I´ve arrived to some conclusions digging in many religions and philosophical thougts, I´ma kind of eclectic. But this is much alike zen and also mayan, hoppies and other ancestral cultures point of view about time.
What I belive you mean with interference is that you could only watch due to not causing a paradox. But if so, the only thing you should create is an alternative diemntion where that change will generate causes and consecuences. Have you red Troyan Horse from JJ Benitez?
I´m dedicated also to tarot, runes and I ching, and through my experience, if in some cases you can say they are not accurate, is just because they just manifest posibilities that can be changed by choice, but they are quite accurate as a self knowledge tools reflecting internal states.
Anyway, what ever could be modified, I just think that the ending will be just the same one. Polarity will become into unity and will have a better comprehention of the eternal present, the one that contains past and future.

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rad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO people who believe that fate exists and that you have some destiny to fulfill, are giving humans way too much credit in the grand scheme of things. I mean do you really believe that humans are so special that each one has been given some special journey in life neutral ? Free will is definately more logical in my mind.

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Aikho
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the choise have been made, but by us, only that when we made the choise we didnt think of any other option than the one we chose, then when the time has come to _do_ the choise we start to think about other options, but we allready have chosen which one to go for

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Lark
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicaris wrote:
Free will is in the boundries of our mind and only that.

I really like the way you put that. Our present personality and the outside factors of the world all are good indications that can be used to "predetermine" ones destiny, but we always have the ability to change.
Sometimes I wonder if there aren't a few predetermined pathways that we could end up on, you know since there are outside factors that we can't control and only so much time to learn so many lessons. Like if every decision we make is a good one, we would be this far at the end of our life, if we continued our bad habits wihtout tryingto change at all we'd end up that far, and then there's all of the paths in between.

Actually, what really blows my mind is, if time is only linear when we have physical bodies, but time and space are all interconnected otherwise, then will making a choice to change in the present not only change future outcomes but also the past?

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