Soldiers in Iraq know they are fighting and dying for a lie

I would take anything Michael Moore says with a grain of salt. It might be true, it might not.

And it’s easy to say, “Oh the government should have been able to protect us” but it’s not exactly always easy to see things like that coming. Even if they knew an attack was coming, did they know the exact plans or where it would take place? The truth is that if some crazy people want to kill lots of people, it’s not that hard of a thing to do.

Iraq does have something to do with terrorists. I don’t know if they had anything to do with 9/11. Either way, Saddam is horrible, I hope we get rid of him. And pretty soon we’ll have a new president, and we’ll see how he or she does things.

Iraq had nothing to do with terrorists untill the U.S. invaded it. Iraq had nothing to do with the U.S. that was bad untill we took their oil.

Sorry offtopic for a second, this made me laugh a bit. Isn’t war what happens when rules and laws fail? I don’t really think laws are going to be followed during a war.
‘Ok we have napalm, but we’re not allowed to use it.’
“Who said?”
‘The opponents felt it would be unfair’
“Ah well by all means, no napalm”

I know that’s what you didn’t mean but that’s what I thought of when I read that

Oh, Ilum, I think you just found the key to the misunderstanding I’ve had with Rad.

Here in Brazil, by no means going to war makes you a hero, makes you loyal to your country. Firstly because we’re not fond of our country, of it’s goverment. We’re ashamed of it, and no brazillian is actually willing to defend it—the people who join the army do so because their families have no money and that’s the only option left with a good salary.

I study in a school which has, for the last 50 years, generated memebers of the thinking elite—important writers, journalists, singers, poriliticians etc.—and whenever the war in Iraq is discussed, people naturally act like it’s a joke.

Not like it’s something serious, horrible, but actually funny. People around here make fun of the United States for having started that, because this war is seen here as the stupidiest thing of the 21st century.

Also, after you study MacKinderianism (the geopolitical theory that ruled all Hitler’s militar movements, and which has now been adopted by the American goverment in it’s expansionism), there is no way you can think they’re not invading Iraq at least also because of the importance of that land.

And I think that’s what this thread it’s about—no matter if there is also a good, peace–maker reason behind this war, ther are other reasons, the soldiers are not being told everything and thus—they are living a lie.

9/11 was an inside job and is the collosal lie that these foolish young men are fighting, killing and dying for on foreign soil. As soon as someone gets hold of the footage of the Pentagon impact then we’ll see who is the crazy conspiracy theorist.

MagicMind- you have quite good answer from Bruno up there.
I think its a shame that after 2000 yrs of “civilization” humans still did not get familiar with term “relative” and keep using “good” and “bad”.
If we keep on focusing on whos bad and how to remove him/her then US and other countries have full hands for next 100 years- just Iraq now but the more violence shown,the more people wanting vengence.List is long- Iraq,China,Tibet,Korea,Russia- and then you have few drug driven republics where goverments and rules change each week.
We better plan whos going to invade who and which people we want to ged rid of or we miss someone:/
At least 80bilions dollars spent on that war on the beginning- only to make a violence spiral run faster.If US used such money for improving life conditions of poor and resigned people there would be so many less potential frustrated terrorists.
Why dont you or you go kill people?because you have stuff you care for.What reaction would be yours if for last twenty years all you saw was tortures and your relatives dying and then a soldier holding you at the gunpoint in your own house?
Wouldnt one prefer the soldier to help him make money and earn for food?
My answer to violence ,even if pointed at me, would be as much compassion as i possibly can because i know that if i react with force it will only help my ego.But my kids and their kids will suffer same thing again and again.
People who do all those terrible masacres and torture camps should be of course isolated but not in the name of revenge and “justice” but given psychiatrists who can minimalize such behaviour in future.Cuz i bet those people arent grown up in conditions like you and me- who knows what i would be doing to little animals if i was brought up in house where my father rapes my sister and my mom lies drunk whole days.
And first of all- those people are nothing without people who follow them- so blaming just one leader for all bad things is childish.How come Hitler was able to do all he did? Because there was not enough people standing up saying “man you crazy” and calling doctors.Instead thousands listened to him.
We are all to blame.Educate people.Give them.Show compassion and love.

Alot of people support what these soldiers are doing.

Not only some of the general public but family and friends. I could not disown or treat a family member less because of what they believe in. Specifically, in this situation.

Like your country Bruno, being in the military here is optional. There are other reasons besides financial need that someone would join the military.

I think it’s great that you have the privilege of attending such a prestigious school. Too bad society didn’t make it so everyone benefited from such education. Maybe that would be a possible solution.

I’m sure many countries ridicule the president for the decision he’s made. And I can state for certain that there are people in this country that have responded the same as you and your people.

But a person is still a person. There are soldiers that want to go home b/c of what they believe in and there are those that don’t. Everyone has their own view on what’s right or the “perfect” way to rule or live.

“Cuz i bet those people arent grown up in conditions like you and me”

I agree.
I don’t know what it was like for Bush growing up, but if it was like the average family (besides the fact that his father was president) I don’t see how he could be so bad/corrupt, which is very possible. If his father was corrupt, though, it would have been passed on to him from very early. I think most people are naturally good, but that can change.

here we go…
iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. the iraq war was planned way before 9/11. the war on terrorism has nothing to do with fighting terrorism. the war on terrorism is terrorism. the united states government creates the most terrorism. the cia practically created al qaeda. osama bin laden was a cia informant. the cia are probably the biggest terrorist organisation around. the war on terrorism has created more terrorism; and in turn, more hate of the united states. face the facts already!

where are the weapons of mass destruction? where is osama bin laden? where are the people that pulled off 9/11? where is the freedom that the troops are fighting for? why do they keep lying about the effects of depleted uranium, as well as other deadly chemicals which are also used in the war? where (you get the point)… so, just know that if you support this war, you support the killing of innocent people for oil and empire…

globalists will do anything to get elected, hey…

LUCULENT is right!!!

“People of America, I know we haven’t been attacked in five years—BUT WE MUST STAY ALERT! They can attack us at any moment, and we must be ready for them!”

Something along those lines… Was on the papers the other day. That made me laugh. It really is some sort of terrorism, isn’t it?

my dear friends,
I propose an experiment.
I would like for you to find a person, (quite possibly one of you would be suitable) who have posted saying violence + violence /=/ peace, or those who say that war can never lead to peace, that violence is always the wrong answer. Perhaps you can find such a person at a protest – rally, or other social gathering. I propose that you approach these pacifists, and put their theory to the test.
I would like you to plant your fist square in their nose – break it if you can. If they do not respond – hit them again, and again, until you are either too weary to continue, or have simply bruised your fists to the point where you need to ice them off. (have a friend come along just in case you feel this may happen – you can take turns pummeling) Address any action of non-aggression as an opening of weakness and raise the vigor of your attacks.
A true pacifist will not lash out against you in violence, but instead accept the beatings, clinging to their principles. (I would applaud any person devout enough to be beaten to near death in such a scenario).

If you were attacked in this instance – what would you do? Would you defend yourself, or would you abide by your noble principles? What if it wasn’t you being attacked, but your brother, father, son, neighbor, wife, daughter, mother, husband, sister… your comrade? Would you stand idly by and allow them to be beaten – held back by the idea that your example of peace will teach a person deranged enough to perform such an action of violence, the meaning of peace?

There was a man on the news not long ago.
He had killed a child.
He Kidnapped this child, he beat her, he raped her.
He buried her - bound and gagged on the grounds of a local church. This poor sweet child who didnt even know of the evils of the world was engulfed in it.

Would you say that your approach fits here as well? Should we fight out against such persons who would rape and kill our children? Or waggle a scolding finger, and do nothing, hoping our example of peace will rub off them?

Without darkness we would not know light.
Without sorrow we would not know happiness.
Without war and bloodshed – we would not know peace.

I almost wish war, oppression and hatred would come upon each and every one of you just so you could have some idea of how fortunate you are – and let you see that what you if is worth fighting for.

i do not fight for you – i fight my fallen comrades, for the people who have lost their lives.

It was all to easy for everyone to turn a blind eye to the injustices being carried out day by day by… men slaughtered in front of their families, only after having seen their wives, and daughters - children beaten and raped. But it doesn’t matter if it is a child 4000 miles away, right? turn a blind eye to that – and say stopping that wasn’t good enough reason for actions in the world today. Please, turn a deaf ear to all cries injustices.
I hope all those wronged would turn a deaf ear to your cries should you ever be in such a terrible state, should you ever fall to the hands of murderous host.

I know I will.

x

i know what my brothers and i fight and die for, and it is not for you. It will never be for you.

X, there is nothing wrong with fighting to defend yourself, but the United States is not fighting to defend itself.
The United States is not fighting terrorism in Iraq; Firstly, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. This is a well known, admitted and documented fact! The US government also had all the foreknowledge they needed to stop 9/11 at least 6 months before it happened. Instead, they just let it come. Why? It’s an excuse, for more power, control, money, you name it.
And then there’s the Patriot Act. Sure, Bush gives it a nice name so that any congressman who didn’t vote to pass it feels ostracized. The bloody congress didn’t even read the bill! Now, almost anyone in the US who commits an offense against the government or police can be considered a terrorist. The patriot act doesn’t protect Americans at all, it makes them vulnerable to their own government.
Then there’s the ostracism of good people trying to protect the principles of what your country was founded on. You’ve got John Ashcroft calling Micheal Moore a traitor, big news reporters calling Alex Jones a conspiracy theorist. These people are only fighting for their country, the same as any soldier in war.
You talk about turning a deaf ear to injustices, well, the biggest injustice is what the administration in your country is doing to it’s own people and the people in Iraq. Why didn’t they apprehend the real bad guys from Al-Qaeda or the Taliban? Because the Bush’s and the Bin Laden’s are business partners, because the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are both products of the CIA! This is all documented stuff here.

Now please consider this carefully, because I’m not telling you this because I think war is stupid, or because I don’t like the US (I most certainly do love the US), but because people need to look at this whole situation objectively and see whats really going on. Fighting for your country’s defence is fine and honourable, I completely agree, but the US isn’t fighting a defensive war. It’s fighting an offensive war, both against Iraq, and against the basic rights of it’s own citizens.

NO! throws pennies at josh read my post.
quick question - who formed the country israel? (tangent - but still.)

yes, defending our own countries is important - but what about the people who cannot defend themselves?
i suppose the us should have stuck to defending themselves when bombs were being dropped on london?? when hitler slaughtered his way through europe? when countless lives were being destroyed?

yeah - we should have just stayed out of europe.

and no, this is not different. lives are being taken, crimes against humanity being committed - and those who have the power to stop them should stop them. but that is hard - it is easier to ignore such cries for help - well y’know cant really hear the poor little girl who is being raped by a soldier of her country in the middle east, africa, east asia - she is so far away - and it is okay, she will only scream once.

wtf is wrong with you? are we only permitted to defend the innocent within our own borders? dont our brothers and sisters have anybody to fight for them? but you can turn your deaf ear to their cries josh, they will be dead soon, i am sure.
it is for them that i fight.
i have lost hope for my country.
i fight for those who have no champion.

x

I’ll just disregard the point about the US not actually entering WWII until they were attacked, and answer your first question.
Yes, it’s right (sometimes) to help those who cannot help themselves, but you have to look at the trade-off. Saddam killed people, yes. However, since the US Iraq war began, over 30,000 Iraqi civilians have died! Not to mention the country’s economy and government are barely able to stand on their own feet. So just how much better off is Iraq? Ultimately, the US shouldn’t have started this non UN sanctioned war. Was change needed in Iraq? Yes, I think it was, however the way it is happening is not the way it should be happening.

Oh an how about those prisoners of war who are sexually assaulted or beaten to a pulp? You can talk all you want about stopping children from being killed by their own government, but it is still happening! The US has been completely unsuccessful at stopping this in Iraq. Over 30,000 people are dead, more are wounded or missing. The only difference is now, Bush and the Bin Laden’s have lots of that nice, black, liquid gold that is OIL.
You don’t seem to understand that I am not trying to turn a deaf ear to the suffering, I’m trying to tell you that the way this situation is being dealt with is not right. It’s being done with ulterior motives in mind, you can be sure. All you have to do is look at how this war started. If it was to free these suffering people, then why did the government say it was to get Saddam out because of a terrorist connection with Al-Qaeda? You are being lied to by the Government that is in power right now.

iraqbodycount.net/

(yes, becuase hitler attacked pearl harbour josh. didnt he invade alaska too?)

lets say - just for shits and giggles, that we minded our own business, and ignored all the poor people being killed every day. sadaam would grow old, day - and one of his sons would hop up and take control of the country - assuming of course that sadaam wouldnt want to get power hungry and gee - invade a neighboring country!? (crazy talk, i know) even if sadaam wasnt the agressor, he would have stood one very shiny chance of being invaded - like you said josh - black gold - saudi, iran, egypt - maybe even israel (maybe not israel) would all be itching to have a monopoly on the middle easts oil exports… i see a fight coming from this, and some very greedy oil sultans. how many lives would have been lost in the course of the years to come, should we have kept our noses out of the way (where i admit, they should have been, until we went in with the un’s noses. it was a messy messy sitch - i do not like how it started, but i am supporting none the less)
so - in my hypothetical future, the middle east is in an oily clash of the titans, tyrants suspect traitors everywhere - start killing the populous even more so then before - and not to mention the rest of the world is probibly not going to have any middle eastern oil.
oil is lubricating the axis on which this world turns josh, and it is unfortunate that it is one of the reasons that bush went charging in - but i am not in total disagreement - imagine the world cut off from middle eastern oil. how much would you be paying for a gallon of fuel?
as for the terrorists… there are terrorists in iraq, so bush decides to go to war with them. in a sane world, the us would work very closely with the government of the infested country, aiding to rid of all the nasty people with guns and the mind to kill anyone who smells like an infidel… so bush should have negoti$)!(@*# do you really see bush working with sadaam? he is corrupt, his regime was corrupt, he did nothing to stop them, it would have been futile to work with him in any regards to free his country of those who would destroy innocent lives, cuz y’know - all of the innocent life taking he does.
(i am going to use 40,000 because i believe the number is in fact higher then that, but how many of those souls were taken by forces other then our own? how many were in fact the enemy)
40,000 killed in iraq by our world’s armies intervention. it is a shame, it is a terrible loss. i recount stories of a child being run over by up armored hummers, and his lifeless body being dragged for MILES… war is not pretty josh, the dumb kid jumped in front of one our vehicles.
on one of our bases, a local was rumaging through a dumpster, looking for discarded trinkets that he could take home and play with - odd thing was his head was smashed in while in the compactor… silly, silly sad man. died over a pair of discarded boots.

terribly story about the child, right? being dragged for that far… his body being torn apart - but do you know why the driver was in such a hurry? his convoy was under attack.
because one iraqi child jumped in front of one of our vehicles - who wouldnt stop for anybody (small arms fire gets you moving in a quick fast and a hury) the soldiers in the area were retaliated against by CIVILIANS.

on the same base as our poor dumpster diver - a mock event was called, a concert - where there would be a large grouping of united states soldiers relaxing - right? prone to all sorts of attack, right? nah - all a sham - but guess how many of the local workers didnt show up to work on base that day?
ever see the pictures of the iraqi children - not older then six years old with assault rifles? disturbing image.
but what about the soldier who was killed by this child because he was to hesitant to destroy his enemy before he was himself.
take those examples i have shared - and multiply it throughout the whole of iraq, for the entire time we have been there. assure me that each and every one of your 40,000 was just an innocent - and wasnt going to kill me just as soon as they had a weapon and the means.
you understand that we are not fighting a uniformed army - that a civilian can transform into a combative and back in the blink of an eye.
shots fire from a crowd - hits your friend - but you dont see who shot him, you dont even see a weapon.

josh, how would you have done things differently? i know there are things i would have liked to have seen done WAY differently. how would you have done things - to save those 40,000 lives for sadaam and co. to murder for himself?

at present - i do not care under what pretense saddam was stopped - he was stopped.
yes the soldiers (meaning me, and my “co-workers”) were lied to, we were put in iraq under some very shady pretenses. i do not care. sadaam needed to be put out - i did not agree with the means, but the end result was one i believed in. removing one of the bad guys out there. the civilian causalties are not going to stop at 40,000 - honestly.

how many people has sadaam killed josh? just his own countrymen. not any of his neighboring countries… how many of his own country did he kill?
do those lives matter? does that number matter?

i would change two things - i would have the full support of the un behind the us to remove a tyrant who slaughters his people, creating an unsteady political enviroment in the middle east… and i would have done it sooner.

how about you josh? what would do? and please do not tell me you would ignore the helpless.

yes. that happened. it is to bad that it did. an isolated event that has blemished the clean cut image of prison for everyone.
but at least we did not cut our prisoners heads off, video tape the whole thing, and put it on the local tv stations.
please josh - watch one of those videos right now.
and then look at the photos of the what we did to those prisoners.
and if you would - take a look at what we give to our prisoners - first, we yell at them - makes there stay uncomfortable, yes. we give them constant light, uncomfortable again.
but - we feed them three times a day, we clothe them (orange jumpsuits - but still) we give them religious materials and the freedom to practice their religion (you have to stop feeding, clothing, bathing and marching your inmates a few times a day at certain times so your prisoner can pray and etc…) and we give them an uncomfortable army bed to sleep in (which beats the uncomfortable army holes i am used to sleeping in) i honestly wish i was treated as well as some of these prisoners while i was in training…

now examine the conditions in which they treat us josh - do you think our people get three meals a day before they are filmed with their heads being torn off? think of what happens to a woman in captivity? goes beyond broomsticks josh.

it makes me sad that people view on war comes straight from tv, movies, f*#$ing geraldo and michael moore, but not from what actually goes on in iraq? ask any soldier, hell ask any contractor if what is reported on the news inst complete bs…
you are not getting the real picture josh, i admire that your statements are far more educated then most - but still, you (and your sources) are not getting the whole picture…

guess what the king of england wrote in his journal july 4, 1776 - “nothing important happened today”
that knowledge of world affairs is the same knowledge of operations in the middle east i am finding in the world today.

I believe I am getting the whole picture. This enire situation goes far far beyond how evil Saddam was, or Oil. Those are simply pretexts to other agendas.
You mentioned negotiating with Saddam. Didn’t the US government supply him with weapons and ammunition a few decades ago? I don’t think negotiation would have been a problem to be honest.

I think Saddam was truely an evil man who shouldn’t have been in power, but the way this is being done is wrong on so many levels, and the reason it is being done wrong is because of a group of more evil people, that’s what I’m ultimately trying to get across.

So in conclusion, here are some I think should have been done. The list goes back a few years in order to account for the prevention of 9/11;

The CIA shouldn’t have trained the Mujahedeen to act against the soviets. It is out of this group that Al-Qaeda was formed.

Bush should not have executed order W-199I. This ordered all FBI agents to do nothing about any possible Al-Qaeda attacks in Chicago, New York, and other cities. In fact, Bush even ignored many of the intelligence reports which confirmed 9/11 was going to happen, then lied about it later saying that the government never got such reports (why is this guy still in power anyway?)

Bush shouldn’t have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan under false pretenses. Don’t forget the Dick Cheney owns Haliburton and Haliburton is the company developing those oil lines right now. There weren’t even any bids for the contracts, they just went straight to Haliburton. As for the price of oil, it could be a lot cheaper if Bio-Fuel, and the North American Oil reserves were utilized. Bio-Oil would cut our consumption of natural oil by a fast amount, and Canada has the larges oil deposit in the world, even more than Iraq. How come we don’t do these things? Because Bush is partnered with the Bin Ladens, and Cheney gets a nice big paycheck from Haliburton.

I think that now that the US is in Iraq, it should do everything it can to ensure a stable government and economy are set up. I mean, they’re there, there’s no leaving all of a sudden obviously. But please, consider also how this war began and who engineered it, who are lying, and who are profiting from it, that’s all I’m asking.

X,

And you know what’s spooky? These were just the dreams. Don’t get me started on what I’ve been through in real life.

How many times I have let people beat me and argued with hoever tried to help me. How many times I bled and feel on my knees and had to keep smiling, to stay true to myself. And no, I didn’t feel like revenging. Because I have seen what I’m capable of, and I was scared by it, and I decided never to hurt a human being again.

You know what sucks? I’m really going to the army. The big chances are that I’m going to be called. And I’m no longer affraid of that. But I feel exhausted, and humiliated.

People are being hurt, people are being killed, and whoever is doing it is a coward enough to regress to their country as victims of the violence they have caused. I will not stand that. I will not hurt a human. Ever.

I don’t know what’s the matter with you, I don’t know what the war did to you, but I’ll tell you something—if there’s no one else alive in this world willing to do so, I’m willing to die rather than hurting another person, no matter how vile they are.

This is not political. This is not about nations. This is an individual choice. If you choose to hurt people for whatever your reasons are, fine. If you’re going to put the responsibility for your actions on the people you’ve hurt or in your country, then you’re a coward.

WHATEVER YOU DO IS YOUR FAULT. And I’m sick of people being so tolerant to war and violence as if they had nothing to do with that.

I’m sick of this.

I don’t have anything relevant to say about the topic but WOW, bruno. Those entries from your dream journal are really interesting and compelling, I’d like to read some more (I’m guessing you have a DJ somewhere on this forum?). Your dreams make way more sense than mine (and you’re a good writer to boot). :bow: