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Is the 'Christian God' real?
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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XLonewolfX wrote:
Quote:
Considering they don't follow a single Christian principle... They cannot be christian but for in name. They can call themselves whatever they want, but they cannot be that thing unless they act in accordance of it.


I could not agree more. All the wars fought by so-called "christians" just prove that they are not the true followers of christ. (I am a christian but my religion is seperate from christendom and we never involve ourselves in wars)



But again, who are you to judge? After the fall, humanity was doomed to sin, correct? Human nature is now evil, becasue of Adam's fall. So humans cannot help sinning. Now, are you telling me that just because of their actions, they do not love God? I'm sure all of you Christians or ex-Christians out there had struggles against sins, such as lying or sex. And does the Bible not say that no sin is greater than the other in the eyes of God? So in the eyes of God, their sins are no greater than yours. And Jesus will forgive them, if they ask. So their sins, while I believe they are worse than anyone I could be talking to here, are no greater than yours in the eyes of God, and they still may be forgiven. Thus, no matter what a person does, if he loves God and asks for forgiveness, he is a Christian. I am not defending Hitler or any other person who kills and says he is a Christian, because that person may not actually love God, and he may just proclaim himself to be Christian for some hidden motive. All I am saying is that you do not know if they love God or not, and you do not know what is going on in their heads, and therefore, have no right to judge.

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zero_saiyaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
XLonewolfX wrote:
Quote:
Considering they don't follow a single Christian principle... They cannot be christian but for in name. They can call themselves whatever they want, but they cannot be that thing unless they act in accordance of it.


I could not agree more. All the wars fought by so-called "christians" just prove that they are not the true followers of christ. (I am a christian but my religion is seperate from christendom and we never involve ourselves in wars)



But again, who are you to judge? After the fall, humanity was doomed to sin, correct? Human nature is now evil, becasue of Adam's fall. So humans cannot help sinning. Now, are you telling me that just because of their actions, they do not love God? I'm sure all of you Christians or ex-Christians out there had struggles against sins, such as lying or sex. And does the Bible not say that no sin is greater than the other in the eyes of God? So in the eyes of God, their sins are no greater than yours. And Jesus will forgive them, if they ask. So their sins, while I believe they are worse than anyone I could be talking to here, are no greater than yours in the eyes of God, and they still may be forgiven. Thus, no matter what a person does, if he loves God and asks for forgiveness, he is a Christian. I am not defending Hitler or any other person who kills and says he is a Christian, because that person may not actually love God, and he may just proclaim himself to be Christian for some hidden motive. All I am saying is that you do not know if they love God or not, and you do not know what is going on in their heads, and therefore, have no right to judge.


Hmm, I hoped I'd been clear enough as to what I was referring to and in what ways this was ment when I tried to elucidate it in reply to Bruno.

I don't see how you can "love God" and then murder off the very people and church you supposidly belong to (or say you belong to any ideology and then go around killing everyone else in that ideology). Unless the person goes absolutely batnuts crazy and loses all who they were before hand (which Hitler may have been, who knows), I don't see how they ever could have actually loved that thing and then turned around and slaughtered it all while still claiming to hold the same name as it? At least when dealing with ideologies. I would still argue it's impossible.

But you are completely correct on your theology there Daylight, and yes one must never judge a person. But the actions are pretty dang loud, and we can judge actions. Was Hitler a christian before becoming a raving lunitic who slaughtered everyone, christians and jews and anyone he didn't deam worthy alike, or was he always just using the pretense of that name? That can never be made fully known. However, I would argue anyone who loves God would display certain qualities that would make that self evident; such as compassion, and not genocidal tendencies.

In any case, people genociding their own ideology is a special case I was speaking of, not general acts of sin which we all commit.
And I would like to applaud you on your wonderful understanding of the theology there; and also re-enforce the reminder that people should never judge others, but be wise and discern what is right between actions and beliefs.

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claytonthebrave
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Christian God (Jesus) is very possible since there is documentation of Jesus being a real living human being. Christians beleive Jesus died on the cross to forgive us of our sins so that if we accepted him into our hearts and lives and asked for forgivness that in God`s (his)eyes we would be perfect. In that we worship him he is in fact a "God".

A God Is : A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

I CONCEIVE him to be perfect etc. Therefore this REAL LIFE PERSON that walked the earth (who may or may not have had powers and such, I beleive he did) is God (at least to me).

All I`m trying to say is that since Jesus was just a person, the Christian God is very real and very possible.
I mean if you worshipped me and said I was your creator etc. I would therefore be God. And I am very real. I am typing this message...you are reading it...is it fake? No.

There is probably more history around prooving Jesus walked the Earth than there is prooving Julius Ceasar did. Just research it if you dont beleive me. idk

You get my point. Maybe what you were trying to ask was, "Did the Christian God Really Create Us?"

My answer would be yes. You cant prove anyone wrong with any amount of information. It is really impossible to know as long as we are limited to our minds.

Maybe this didnt make sense to anyone. I am bad at explaining my head.

The above may also be confusing since
Jesus=God=Holy Spirit and lives as 3 different beings. But the one Christians worship the most is jesus

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Freecube
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worship the 3 as a whole, the Trinity. Jesus is no better than God, God no better than the Holy Spirit, etc.

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Bruno
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freecube wrote:
I worship the 3 as a whole, the Trinity. Jesus is no better than God, God no better than the Holy Spirit, etc.

Doing otherwise was considered heresy for millenia.

Anyways, guys, I don't think it's fair to say other people aren't christian because their views on christianism is different from yours. It's not how you interpret things that make you christian or not. It's believing in some basic stuff.

After all, if we were to take the bible literally, we would be selling our daughters, enslaving our neighbours and killing bulls in rituals to Yaweh... eh

I know, I know, it's hard to call the ganocidal psychopath a christian, and it's completely fair to say they doesn't believe the same things you do... But saying you're better a christian then them, that's arrogance.

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
Anyways, guys, I don't think it's fair to say other people aren't christian because their views on christianism is different from yours. It's not how you interpret things that make you christian or not. It's believing in some basic stuff.

After all, if we were to take the bible literally, we would be selling our daughters, enslaving our neighbours and killing bulls in rituals to Yaweh... eh

I know, I know, it's hard to call the ganocidal psychopath a christian, and it's completely fair to say they doesn't believe the same things you do... But saying you're better a christian then them, that's arrogance.


Thank you Bruno. It is not that I am saying Hitler, etc. was a christian, but rather, they could have been, and no one has any right to say otherwise, besides that person.

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Freecube
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruno, I would reply but I know zero could do it alot better than me, the old law doesnt apply to followers of Christ, I mean to a degree it does, zero will explain it. I know he will lol

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Shaper
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is 'the old law'? I'm not familiar with that term, are referring to the stuff Bruno mentioned? The stuff about taking the bible literally and everything?
Just curious smile

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zero_saiyaman
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:

I know, I know, it's hard to call the ganocidal psychopath a christian, and it's completely fair to say they doesn't believe the same things you do... But saying you're better a christian then them, that's arrogance.


Maruu? I don't see where I said anyone was better than anyone else, or advocated that; though your right Bruno in that it would be arrogent for anyone to do so. Infact, I did bluntly re-enforce the idea of non judgementalism which is vital for conducting life, intellectual pursuets, a foundation of rationality and compassion, and all important if anyone wishes to seek truth.

Nor did I make a judgement call and say Hitler wasn't, really. I totally agree with Daylight that he could have been, as it cannot be utterly known unless one was God, and no one has the right to absolutely say one way or the other except God. However, no matter your views on things, if people "believe the same basic things" as you put it Bruno, there should be diagnostic repurcussions--quantitative/qualitative similarities and the like (or perhaps I'm just so strong in my sentiment about this because this is the philosophical foundation of all scientific pursuits).

This is because Christianity teaches the same thing, whatever your view on it. Yes, there are many interpertations, but the core must be the same to be "Christian" I think. Likewise, there are many emotions out there, but why is that emotion of wanting to protect someone called "love" and that emotion of wanting to destroy that one not called love (but rather "hate")? How, for instance, do we draw the line between someone loving someone and someone abusing someone? Could their abusing that person be an expression of their love? In a twisted internalized sense, maybe. But is it love? No, never, and in no way.

That is because all love, whatever the relationship and package, has to have the same core: I.e. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not prideful. It is not self-seeking, it is not rude, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always trusts, always hopes, always protects, always perseveres.
You can call whatever you want "love" but it is not actual love unless it has that core.

For instance, you can call a table an elephant, but that won't change that four legged wooden construction into a 2 ton four legged beast of flesh and blood with an extremely long, prehensile nose. Words alone give no meaning. Words give reference, but words do not make something what it is.

Now, I may be totally wrong in my feelings about Hitler and genociding one's own kind precluding you from actually being that kind in the first place. I may indeed be absolutely wrong about all I said above. However, it is axiom that he was not acting in a Christian manner when he killed innocent people whatever the reason. Or, will someone despute me here and try to say what he did was somehow a valid interpretation of Christianity and Christ's teachings, which were summed up as "Love God with all your heart above all else" and "Love your neighbor as yourself"? I would like to hear anyone try to justify what he did under that; would it not appaul you all as much as it would appaul you all to have someone who raped and murdered their girlfriend try to say they did it out of love?

Yes, if Hitler was or was not cannot be fully known. However, if Hitler was following a single Christian principle or not can be aboslutely, without dispute, known; and it is. Nothing in the teachings are that unclear, and everything Hitler did after coming to power was anti-Christian and anti-God. He wasn't acting as a Christian, whatever the case in his heart of hearts; that is axiom.

And, for Freecube's sake, yes, the Law was only for the sake of showing God's standards of holiness--as is elucidated many times in the book of Hebrews--and was never ment to be lived up to trying on one's own power. Instead, it was always known, even back before Christ as David and Abraham show, that it was by grace alone one could be saved and anyone who repented of their inability to follow the law by turning to God for grace and forgiveness would be saved, no matter how badly they'd messed up following the law. Infact, Isreal was once spared judgement because the king of the time, Josiah, repented--it's that easy. It takes an incredible amount of wrong to bring God's judgement against a place it seems, but a single act of repentance to erase it all.

Moreover, sacrifices were a metaphore and known quite well throughout the bible as being there to show that humans could not undo their own sin, but needed something else as a substitute, which ultimately was Christ (once again playing back to grace). So no, anyone who takes the bible literally would not be sacrificing bulls, selling daughters, or enslaving neighbors (both of those last two are not in the bible in that way, unless you consider the dowery system selling, which in the strictest sense it is, and still goes on today in all the cultures of the world to some extent or another). Anyone who did do those things and tried to use the bible as support will only show their ignorance of the bible really, either because they didn't read enough and just ran with the first thing they saw or hearsay, or because they picked and chose for their own reasons (such as to support "legalism"). Because taking the bible literally means understanding that the law convicts and shows the need for grace, and that Christians are called to be the most humble of all people, selfless, loving in all cases, and non-judgemental of other people (only discerning between ideas, actions, and beliefs, as that's the difference between wisdom and naivety).
I think the word "literal" is highly misused these days, along with the word "hate" (you guys should have seen what was going on in the middle of my campus today. Literally a protest protesting a protest that was protesting a protest, and it may have been even sillier than that *rolls eyes* but I didn't stick around to waste my time scoping it out)

It is good to discuss all these matters, and important to do so, and I have been greatly joyed to see people here thinking about the world and trying to untangle thoughts and find what is good out of all the crud thrown around in pop-culture. Keep up the great thoughts and ponderings, Bruno, Daylight and Freecube ^^. I do enjoy hearing what you all think and sharpening my own thoughts against such. Other views and ideas are vital, and always so interesting, in finding out deeper truth.

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