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Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes
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Draginvry
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes Reply with quote

This is easily the most practical summary of Zen that I've ever seen.

[mod edit]Removed link since it's ad–infested. oh maan[/mod edit]

The basic idea is that the reason people are not enlightened is that they are schizophrenic, where "schizophrenic" is defined in a very literal sense. Here, schizophrenic simply means that people have a split mind.

The most fundamental reason for having a split mind is being indecisive. When people are indecisive, they aren't sure what path to take, and they bounce around. Not only physically, but in their internal monologue as well.

The most fundamental reason for being indecisive, is having to make decisions. For example, if I were to choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, I would have to weigh the options. Which one do I feel like? Which one is more tasty? Which one is better? Which one did my little brother leave out for the dog to slobber over?

However, such a choice is only pertinent if either chocoloate or vanilla actually is better. If we eliminated our preference for one over the other, then we could eat either one with equal pleasure, while not having to make a decision.

Thus, the logical conclusion is to eliminate thought process which produce discrimination. When we eliminate this discrimination, then we can equally find pleasure in all aspects of life, without ever having to think about it.

This is enlightenment.

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Bruno
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes Reply with quote

Draginvry wrote:
The basic idea is that the reason people are not enlightened is that they are schizophrenic, where "schizophrenic" is defined in a very literal sense. Here, schizophrenic simply means that people have a split mind.

Although this is a nice literal translation of the original meaning of schizophrenia (σχίζω φρήν, split mind) one should note that this text is not refering to clinical schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a psychiatric diagnosis, not psychological, and schizophrenic people do not necessarily have dissociative identity disorder (split personality).

Draginvry wrote:
The most fundamental reason for having a split mind is being indecisive. When people are indecisive, they aren't sure what path to take, and they bounce around. Not only physically, but in their internal monologue as well.

The most fundamental reason for being indecisive, is having to make decisions. For example, if I were to choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, I would have to weigh the options. Which one do I feel like? Which one is more tasty? Which one is better? Which one did my little brother leave out for the dog to slobber over?

If this is what the zen buddhists think to be the reason for human disgrace, then I have to dispute big time their beliefs. It is a strong belief of mine that human disgrace comes, most of the time, because people know way to well what they want.

Draginvry wrote:
However, such a choice is only pertinent if either chocoloate or vanilla actually is better. If we eliminated our preference for one over the other, then we could eat either one with equal pleasure, while not having to make a decision.

And you're telling me people actually suffer and split their personalities because they have to choose vanilla over chocolate or viceversa?

Draginvry wrote:
Thus, the logical conclusion is to eliminate thought process which produce discrimination. When we eliminate this discrimination, then we can equally find pleasure in all aspects of life, without ever having to think about it.

This is enlightenment.

eh I don't think I got it.

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes Reply with quote

Draginvry wrote:
The most fundamental reason for having a split mind is being indecisive. When people are indecisive, they aren't sure what path to take, and they bounce around. Not only physically, but in their internal monologue as well.


Part of life is being indecisive. If all descisions were easy to make, life would be robotic, and not as interesting.

Quote:
However, such a choice is only pertinent if either chocoloate or vanilla actually is better. If we eliminated our preference for one over the other, then we could eat either one with equal pleasure, while not having to make a decision.


Life would be so boring! The fun of life is being able to say, "I like chocolate better" and have your friend say "i like vanilla better" and discuss why.

Quote:
Thus, the logical conclusion is to eliminate thought process which produce discrimination. When we eliminate this discrimination, then we can equally find pleasure in all aspects of life, without ever having to think about it.


We would all be robots, not enlightened. I don't know exactly how a buddist sees enlightenment, but to not discriminate at all, and see everything as equal does not sound enlightened to me. I am, of course, talking about enlightenment as it pertains to the individual, and not the universe. Of course, in the universe, chocolate ice cream is equal to vanilla, but to me, chocolate is better, and having that preferance, that choice, is the essence of life.

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dreamusic
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This example would only make sense if choosing between chocolate and vanilla created suffering in the person. Or if you couldn't enjoy vanilla because you wanted chocolate. I think what its getting at is that we shouldn't let our discriminations stop us from seeing things how they actually are instead of what we wish them to be.

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how do we even know that human perception is capable of seeing things how they really are? I see things how I want to see them, and by gaining Zen enlightenement, I do not see things how they actually are, but rather see them with the bias of Zen philosophy.

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claytonthebrave
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isnt this almost like saying : "You are schizophrenic because you dont find eating a pile of dog crap as pleasurable as eating mashed potatoes" ???

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dreamusic
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
But how do we even know that human perception is capable of seeing things how they really are?

Once you get rid of what you think it should be, you allow it to exist for what it truely is.

DayLight wrote:
I see things how I want to see them, and by gaining Zen enlightenement, I do not see things how they actually are, but rather see them with the bias of Zen philosophy.

From a limited perspective your ego-self gains something from enlightenment, but it is something you always had, it was just clouded over. So you aren't really gaining something as much as stripping away everything superficial until you are left with "emptiness". But it is this emptiness that allows everything on the surface to exist. Once you realize that there is no reason to suffer, to discriminate, to attach yourself to the superficial, you can live freely and spontaneously, enjoying each moment for what it is instead of what your mind thinks it wants, you see? So its not a bias at all, in fact it is the absence of all bias.

claytonthebrave wrote:
Isnt this almost like saying : "You are schizophrenic because you dont find eating a pile of dog crap as pleasurable as eating mashed potatoes" ???

Not at all. Zen doesn't mean that you lose all logical thought. It means that you don't let your thoughts control you. We all know that there is no point to eat a pile of dog crap, that is just ridiculous. It does not mean that everything is equal, that crap is the same as potatoes. It means that you should get rid of discrimination and prejudice which distorts your perspective.

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Last edited by dreamusic on Tue May 02, 2006 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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claytonthebrave
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamusic wrote:

Not at all. Zen doesn't mean that you lose all logically thought. It means that you don't let your thoughts control you. We all know that there is no point to eat a pile of dog crap, that is just ridiculous. It does not mean that everything is equal, that crap is the same as potatoes. It means that you should get rid of discrimination and prejudice which distorts your perspective.


Thanks for clearing that up for me! lol Dog crap does not equal potatoes.

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Shaper
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes Reply with quote

Draginvry wrote:

Thus, the logical conclusion is to eliminate thought process which produce discrimination. When we eliminate this discrimination, then we can equally find pleasure in all aspects of life, without ever having to think about it.

This is enlightenment.


This is something I've tried to do on and off for the past few years, and let me tell you, the thought processes that sort, catagorize, schematize and descrimiate are hard to break after an entire lifetime of using them constantly yes
So, I think I understand what you're saying, and I think if put into practice, it can be increadibly useful, especially in the worst situations we could find ourselves in. This way, the glass is always half full.

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Last edited by Shaper on Tue May 02, 2006 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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plehrar
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Re: Zen enlightenment...in thirty minutes Reply with quote

Draginvry wrote:
This is easily the most practical summary of Zen that I've ever seen.

[mod edit]Removed link since it's ad–infested. oh maan[/mod edit]

Thus, the logical conclusion is to eliminate thought process which produce discrimination. When we eliminate this discrimination, then we can equally find pleasure in all aspects of life, without ever having to think about it.

This is enlightenment.


Wow :D sounds pretty much the same as a philosophy I made for myself a few weeks ago. I basically came to the conclusion that in order to do things and get them done or out of the way I just had to stop thinking, Ignore all the thought processess and act. The longer you wait the more reasons you can give yourself to not to do something, the more time deciding you need to waste the more conflict. It really works, especially for negative neurosis type feelings, when they come up you're usually just thinking too much

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Dawn'sDeath
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'ts like something a friend told me for enjoying life and don't care about not having what i want so that i won't be sad.
"Want nothing."
If you want nothing whatever comes will be good.
If you want something and it doesn't come you'll be sad and you'll keep wondering "why the heck what i wanted didn't come".

If you have only two choices and both of them look fine to you,you won't think which one will be better and thus with both of them you'll be glad.

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dreamusic
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is about giving up the ego's control. Since you were born your ego has learned to try to control everything because you were suddenly placed in an overwhelming environment of which you seemed to have little to no control over. This serves a purpose, but it can also become a problem. When you let go of the control that is unnecessary, you can live more freely. This is when life gets interesting!

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Snape
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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dawn'sDeath wrote:
I'ts like something a friend told me for enjoying life and don't care about not having what i want so that i won't be sad.
"Want nothing."
If you want nothing whatever comes will be good.
If you want something and it doesn't come you'll be sad and you'll keep wondering "why the heck what i wanted didn't come".

If you have only two choices and both of them look fine to you,you won't think which one will be better and thus with both of them you'll be glad.

I find this really depressing.
If you want nothing, whatever comes will be neither good nor bad. The trick is to balance wanting to improve yourself with being happy with the present circumstances.
Buddha said 'walk the middle path', not 'stop living'.

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