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Free Will & Choice,,, do we really have it ?
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cynic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject: Free Will & Choice,,, do we really have it ? Reply with quote

im starting this thread because of something i read in another topic.

Do we have "Choice" and "Free Will" ?

some say yes..
sure we have a choice. if i wanna go down the street ill do it. sure if i want to eat some pie, i can smile
some say no.
you only go down the street when something causes you to. you will only eat pie if you have a desire to or if you were hungry to start with.

its a tricky subject and there are alot of factors to take into acccount.

this is a queston ( if answered ) that could prove or disprove religion also.

Einstien said " if we can learn everything about the present, we can predict the future ", yes, this is a valid statement. if we know the exact relationships between every atom,molecule,electron ect.. at this verry point in time. we could know what they were going to do next and so on. and if we knew everything that was going to happen before it happens, would it not be fair to assume that everything has been pre written. every action is caused by a previous reaction and the outcome is pre determined ? some people find this hard to grasp or even accept.

now if everything was pre determined, we really do not have a choice in what we do. even if we think we do. our bodies are no different than anything else in the universe.
- a star forms. it lives. it explodes,. -we know this
- a tree drops a seed, the seed grows to become a tree, the tree drops a seed, the tree dies.- we know this.

we know this allready. everything is nothing more than neutrons and electrons reacting in thier own way and acting out this pre conceived play called life.

our seperate experiences would then have to written in advance.
- you are born-we know this
- your parents raise you, filling your mind with morals and experience-we know this
- your life experience determins who you become-we know this
- you act accordingly in situations to who you are and what life has taught you-we know this
- your reactions to others cause them to respond accordingly to thier own life experience-we know this
and so on.

ok where am i ...... yes, im going back on causality as i mentioned breifly in another thread.

we know that actions cause reactons. but how many reactions are there? some say there are infinite reactions. they all cant happen at once tho.. therefore in THIS world there can only be one reaction to every action. the question is. can we know what the reaction will be simply by viewing the regression of caused action. ( i hope im making sense to you all still )

using regression we look back to find the verry first cause of an event.
eg:- i hit jim because he called my mother a whore but only before i made fun of his girlfreind who sucked my *** and was terrible at it.
but what caused her to give me head? why was she terrible at it? ect..

ok ill leave it to you thinkers out there to throw ideas around now smile

Do we have free will ?? (please, if your gonna say " Oh Yer DUHH ofcourse i have free will, i know i do. see i have it " ) dont bother. i want some thought out responses.

cheers. later. peace. smile

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Ego Tripping
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Free will is what you want it to be and however you want to think about it. And isn't that idea alone, free will?

For me, just the ability to question the idea of "Do I have free will?" proves right away that I do!

You can drive your car off a bridge anytime you want to. Nothing stops you from grabbing a gun and shooting someone. Just because you don't have the desire to do it doesn't mean you don't have the ability.

A Dog cannot question it's existance, purpose or even own state of being. But you can. Is it safe to say you have more 'free will' than a Dog?

Is it then illogical to assume you have free-will?

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cynic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good point.

you have the ability to do alot of things, alot of things you dont do because you have no reason to do them. nothing caused you to do it, so you dont. sure you can call your ability to question you actions free will, but you only question them because of past experience and lessons learnt. this means you were "caused" unto that specific action.

i really like this topic and i have had many insightfull conversations with people on it.

btw, im not saying its either way. i just wanna see where this leads. smile

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Jeff
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Name something that is absolute 100% unfree!
Name also something that is absolute 100% free!

Both illusions, free and unfree, reality is relative and inbetween free and unfree.

But you can experience your will as free, or u can wish it.
will is not a cause but an effect, because there is no will when there is no motivation under it, a cause for our behaviour.

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Ego Tripping
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe in pre-determined free will. I'll explain if it I really need to, but it's a paradox of course. It makes complete sense to me though.

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cynic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i may have made myself unclear.

we DO have the ability to make choices.. my proposal is that all our actions are not completley of our own accord. we only make choices when we are provided with an ultimatum, and every choice is derived from an ultimatum. the path we choose is dictated by who we are. and who we are, are the choices we make. therefore you would not be the person you are today if it werent for all the choices you made.
so really... could you have been any different? could you have chosen different?
i say no, otherwise you would be someone else smile

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Ego Tripping
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree cynic.

I think it all 'happens for a reason', not to sound too cliche. This does not negate free will.

The best way I can describe my belief....for every path you choose, there is the correct adjustment being made "at the end" to ensure your arrival there. No matter what, 'all roads lead to Rome.' Some just might be more rockier and take longer. :D

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cynic
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is an interesting article on freewill some of you might enjoy to read.

http://www.naturalism.org/strawson_interview.htm

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Jeff
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand you perfectly Ego Tripping wink
Thats more or less my perspective on the topic also.

One of the mods (Atheist) had already made a topic about this, really good and interesting one.
Took me 2 weeks to solve the riddle, how all can be determined and yet we have also relative freedom still.
it isnt pure free will its relative free will.
Still have to write the solution down, lol but iam always to busy colgate

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Jeff
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your last post cynic.
But choice influences who u are and visa versa because we also exist in time. And consciousness learns from its actions.
So its not a free will or absolute unfree but a relative free will.
We dont like that because free and unfree are such easy borders to make jugments from colgate and inbetween lays relativity and that is a bit of a grey zone.

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Kimius
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, looking at this from a logical standpoint, the signals of the brain going in all kinds of directions will always travel the path of least resistance, as that is a rule of electricity. as such, these signals will always go a specific way in a specific situation. to compare, a computer will always give the same answer to the same question. by taking that to the next step, one can say that the mind will always come to the same "conclusion" in a given situation, and as such, we do not have free will, as the mind is like a very powerful computer. a computer always gives the same answer to the same question, and as such, the mind should, given our current knowledge of its functions, do the same.

this is just a theory ive bodged together, but when u think about it, it makes perfect sence, doesn't it?

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ilana
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://forum.ld4all.com/viewtopic.php?t=5157 shy2

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Jeff
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup there it is Ilana!:D
Its a great topic colgate

One of the best or the best maybe even!

colgate

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Victor
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this is a very neat thread. I thought I'd add my insight on the subject.

This is somethign I've pondered about alot.. It says that God gave man free will. Yet it ALSO says that he knows everything that will happen and already forgives us for our wrongs.. But that doesn't fit. Free will is abuot making our own choices, but how can we make our own choices and do spontaneous things if everything is already pre-determined.

smile

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Lucid Sky Dreams
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haven't any of you seen the MATRIX!? the problem is choice, resulting in the anomoly or whatnot. lol. Of course we have free will and choice. You could say everything causes us to do something, but really it's all of our choices that cause those things to happen. Choice is the beginning of every action we take, either concious choices or subconcious choices.

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