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Military draft in spring 2005, for real

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quiXote
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PostPosted: Mon 23 May, 2005  Reply with quote

17 from Poland have died.
88 Soldiers from the UK have died.
1636 From the United States.
1816 coalition members in all.
Do you blame all these people for everything that you dont like in iraq? the 88 from the UK? or just the 1636 from the United States? what about the other coalition members? do you blame them too?
Yes war is bad. I hate it. More then anything i hope and pray everyday that i will not be placed in a situation that would require me to take the life of a fellow human being. I would rather have my own life taken, or hell, i would even like to face prison time and be labled a coward if it meant i didnt have to take the life of somebody else.
But i cant just think of myself now can i? what about my friend, my platoon sergeant, my gunner, my driver, my crew, my convoy, reporters, medics, red cross? If killing an enemy prevents the death of any of these people i would do everything i could to ensure the safety of those fighting to instill liberty.
All the same, if killing this person means saving the life of the Iraqi policemen or security, if it means preventing another IED, if it means preventing the death of any innocent civilian, If it means preventing the death of an iraqi child, mother, brother, son, uncle, father, whoever, i will kill.
If it means stopping or hindering terror attacks, weither they be in iraq or abroad. I will kill.
We dont kill or drop bombs for the fun of it. Do you think the people required to make those decisions enjoy killing? 9 out of 10 involved in combat upon seeing or taking part in the death of another human being, friend or foe... breaks into tears.

I dont care if you do not support the war. I dont care if you dont support my president. I dont care if you do not support my country or its ideals of liberty.

But i do care if you call me a murderer.



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1984
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PostPosted: Mon 23 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Yes they all share their portion of blame, but obviously some much more than others. For example the prisoner-abusers, the people who have killed people that didn't need to be killed and so on. What's your problem with my stance? You say you don't mind if I don't support the war, I'm just being consistent. I don't support the war, therefore I don't support those who carry out the war, it's not strictly personal, it's just logical.


As for your 'murderer' comment I never called you a murderer. But if you do kill someone in Iraq then you are a murderer in my eyes, plain and simple. A murderer is someone who intentionally kills someone illegally, and as far as I am concerned the war in Iraq was illegal, therefore any intentional killing done by soldiers in Iraq is murder.

And obviously a lot of people don't like making decisions about dropping bombs, but clearly some of them get a kick out of it. How else do explain all the news shots of bombs with macho-bullshit messages written on them like 'eat this Saddam' or something equally stupid, considering that they are more likely to kill civilians than soliders or Saddam.

As for the 'I don't care if you don't support my country, or its ideals of liberty' I want to make it clear that I don't have too much of a problem with a lot of U.S. citizens, at least those that didn't support the war or either of the potential presidents (Bush and Kerry) and their parties.

But how can you think your government stands for freedom when they really stand for 'American Hegemony' over the rest of the world? Just because Bush says that you attacked Iraq for the cause of 'freedom' doesn't mean that it's true.


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quiXote
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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Do you think everybody in iraq wants to go? Of all the soldiers there it would difficult to find more then a small handful of washed up generals who want to be there for the same reasons as bush. The soldiers dont want to be there. Think we wanted to stop our lives midsentance and go kill or be killed? The only reason anybody has any drive or motivation to do what they do is to protect our own.
Bush put us in an akward situation. Made the soldiers a lot of enemies. We tend to band together. Can't stand by with much ease if another soldier is dying.
That is all i see the war as right now. Other soldiers dying, damned reporters and contractors dying. I would do everything i could do to stop that.
Whatever reasons bush had to initially send us to iraq i do not agree with. he went about things the wrong way.
i have to think there is a difference being made. that there will be some good to come out of this.
People were getting hurt. It may not be the reason we went to iraq, but its a nice side effect that the oppression of the iraqi people will come to an end. that is worth fighting for.
keeping my fellow soldiers safe is something worth fighting for.
The people responsible for abuse in prisons, killing those who were no threat... yes, these people are wrong. They are prosicuted and punished to the extent of their crimes. if not, i pray justice finds them.
Our soldiers dont kill just to kill,
When we have broken bottles or rocks being thrown at us we dont kill everyone in sight.
There is some order to chaos.
There are rules of engagement.
Anyone who violates these rules should be and is punished.
I am going to iraq in a very short time,
when i get there, if i see another soldier with a knife to his throat, or gun to his back, what should i do?
What should i do when i find weapons pointed and fired at me?
What should i do when the bombs go off?
Should i do what must be done and kill those who would kill me or mine?
or should i just ask them nicely to stop and hope they do, and if i get killed it is all and well because i didnt have to murder anyone in self defense??
that is why i dont agree with your stance.
If you dont support the leaders, fine. Give the soldiers some leeway. Not all of them want to be doing what they are doing.
And its not as simple as jail time either if you turn your back on the war.
I wish it was that simple.



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1984
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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Well I agree that they are difficult circumstances, and that not many people would choose to be there. But I say again, you have free choice, you always have free choice. You had free choice when you joined the armed forces, and you have it now. You wouldn't need to fight to save your friends if you all decided to disobey your government for once.

How is it not as simple as jail time? Do you mean the stigma and so on, you'll be called a coward etc. I know, I've seen it happen through the media when some soldier decided he couldn't go back to Iraq after home leave. But if you all organised and disobeyed on mass you wouldn't have any problems, it's only because people don't want to let their friends down, but if you organised you could work it out.

Look, I'm not trying to say that it's all the soliders fault, not at all. As far as I am concerned they are just pawns in the game of global politics, but they do bear some responsibility for not dissenting and disobeying. Do you really think that by joining the army and fighting and killing in Iraq you bear absolutley no responsibility for what has happened in Iraq whatsoever? You can't deny your responsibility, however small.

You are going to Iraq, I say don't if you don't support the war and don't want to risk being placed in a situation where you have to kill an innocent person. The way to try and sort out the situation in Iraq is to rapidly develop Iraqi infrastructure, public services (health care/education) etc and security services so they can defend themselves against the insurgency. The U.S. and others being there is doing them no good, all the 'coalition' is doing is making the insurgency more determined, and not doing enough by far to rebuild Iraq. However, the U.S. has made it clear that they won't ever leave Iraq, so the Iraqis are screwed from both sides of the killing.

As for the punishment for the abuses and murders I don't agree that justice has been done, not even close.


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quiXote
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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Quote:

As for the punishment for the abuses and murders I don't agree that justice has been done, not even close.

I agree. What these people did is wrong. They should be maxed out. and when i say maxed out i mean in the sense that the army executes (rarely but it happens) and gives life without parole to rapists. We are harsh on are criminals. I hope these people get what is coming to them. They are a disgrace to the uniform and the country and the people of the united states. i hope they rot in dankest of prisons.

I wish it was as simple as five years in the clink.
Consequences are far more drastic.
Felony Desertion.
Dishonorable Discharge.
With those two things on a persons record they would be lucky to get a job flipping hamburgers or sweeping streets. forget about acceptance into any schools. a brand of 'coward' follows those people around.
Oh, and the jailtime, thats not at any federal prison. that is at a military prison. i dont know if you know much about military prisons, but the tower of london in its height and glory sounds more appealing to me.
Oh and there's that thing that deserters during wartime can be shot on sight by any member of the armed forces... yeah, dont like that one.
You make it sound so easy, like i can trade in 18 months in iraq for five years in the clink and get off scotch free.
That sort of thing would ruin anybodies life. they would be nothing and nobody.
I wish it was as easy as you make it seem... but its not worth the consequences to avoid the possibility of injuring or killing somebody.
Lemme tell you why i joined up with the army eh?
i didnt want to kill people. i wanted to help people. i saw all the good the army does. the good the army does in my community, not long ago my city flooded, the guard came in gave everyone food and water, filled sandbags, took care of the people. They help put out the wildfires that plague the state (ironicly enough, inspite of the flood we are pushing a 11 year draught). During the olympics in SLC they walked the streets to ensure security. I saw how much good they did for my community and i wanted to repay the debt and help my community in the ways they did.
I did not join to be a killer of men.
It is not something i want to do.
My brother is going to Iraq a little sooner i am. He doesnt want to go either, his wife will give birth to his firstborne son while he is gone. He wont see him until he is over a year old.
He wont be here for my sisters wedding. Or to meet his new neices. He joined the army because he felt he needed to serve this country that has been so good to him and our family. Not to be a killer.
I would do anything to ensure my brothers safety.
If i was faced with the situation with the choice of killing somebody to make sure he was safe... i would do it without hesitation.
I would do the same for any of the soldiers i serve with.
None of these kids joined to die for their country. I have a duty to them while in the service of my country to ensure their safety.
I dont care about or for the reasons bush stuck us in iraq. All i care about is keeping my soldiers safe, and hopefully leave behind a little life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness when we are done in iraq, reguardless of the goals of this adminstration.

MAC



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quiXote
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PostPosted: Tue 24 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Quote:

The way to try and sort out the situation in Iraq is to rapidly develop Iraqi infrastructure, public services (health care/education) etc and security services so they can defend themselves against the insurgency. The U.S. and others being there is doing them no good, all the 'coalition' is doing is making the insurgency more determined, and not doing enough by far to rebuild Iraq. However, the U.S. has made it clear that they won't ever leave Iraq, so the Iraqis are screwed from both sides of the killing.

Again, i agree. I want our troops out of iraq last june when bush said they were supposed to be gone.
He has a vendetta, has to get rid of all the terrorists and insurgents and everyone that pissed off his pappy.
Needs insurance too... If iraq crumbles after we withdraw... we get the blame.
If we leave what stops other nations from rushing in and taking control?
I wish we could leave.
I dont want our troops in iraq.
gotta think of the misson however.
wishes dont get much accomplished

MAC



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milod789
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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Well I was going to chime in here but sisokogotai said it all and more.

sisokogotai

I am sorry you are going to that place. Just know that the peoples thoughts are with you.

Be safe.


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1984
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PostPosted: Wed 25 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Well sisokogotai I can see we both feel very strongly about this issue, but I hope I haven't offended you too much, however I will stick to my beliefs. I too really sincerely hope that your time in Iraq passes quickly and safely, I just wish that there was some organised dissent in the U.S. army, because with good organisation and total solidarity the U.S. army could be out of Iraq and Bush and his people wouldn't be able to do a thing.

As I said before the army does do some good in some places, and I highly respect that you actually joined because you wanted to do something good for the world. But this is the real world, not some idealistic movie world, and surely you knew your country's history, because I know my country's history and I would never join the armed forces unless it was to go directly to fight in a war that I believed in like world war 2.

Joining the armed forces of the U.S. or the U.K. or most other countries only puts you at the mercy of your leaders' decisions, and puts you in the awful position so many are in now. You have amply highlighted the horrors that would happen to you if you deserted or disobeyed orders, and if I was in your position could I follow my beliefs? I can't say sitting here, it would be too easy. But I certainly would try and get out a.s.a.p. (I appreciate you may be locked in for multiple years), because who knows which country the U.S. is going to attack next.


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quiXote
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PostPosted: Thu 26 May, 2005  Reply with quote

milod789 wrote:
Well I was going to chime in here but sisokogotai said it all and more.

sisokogotai

I am sorry you are going to that place. Just know that the peoples thoughts are with you.

Be safe.


thank you very much. it is comforting to have your thoughts and support.

c'est la vie

MAC



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