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DayLight
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

That is true, but it still does not explain this-
Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will
be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ
version).
This is a failed prophesy, no way around it.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Some other things listened to Jesus that not people. wink5

Maybe he said he'll be back during the existance of civilization... Find some other translations and lets see if we can dig more on that piece of text.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

I only have the King James Version on my computer, which reads:
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. " 28"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

And my dad has The Living Bible(paraphrased, self-help edition), and Matthew 16:27-28 reads:
"For I, the Son of Mankind, shall come with my angels in the glory of my Father and judge each person according to his deeds. 28And some of you standing right here now will certianly live to see me coming in my kingdom."

He also has the new American Bible, in which Matthew 16:27-28 reads:
"The Son of Man will come with his Father's glory accompanied by his angels. When he does, he will pay each man according to his conduct. 28 I assure you, among those standing here there are some who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man come in his kingship."


Bruno wrote:
Some other things listened to Jesus that not people.


That is true, and I considered that, but upon re-reading the verses, all three translations I read said something about some of the people listening to him not tasting death, or not dying. Any astral being that could have been listening cannot die, which means to me that he was reffering to humans.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

*Bruno shrugs

Then I don't know. I'm not a good lawyer. tounge2


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Hyperion
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

The ontological, teleological, and cosmological arguments for the existence of God are flawed. Then again, so are their opposing arguments! It seems that "know-it-alls" have made popular this belief that wild speculation can somehow, through a process of deduction, prove or disprove a being that lies wholly outside our capacity of perception/understanding. If anything, this article is just pointing out tautologies that exist in our language. I wish people would stop discussing such ridiculous nonsense and realize how truly fruitless this entire debate really is. We don't and can't *** know!

Christianity is just like every other religion. Dogmatism is harmful. You don't have the truth; in fact, no one does or can ever have it under any possible circumstances. So there. In the words of the philosopher Montaigne, "What do I know?"


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Quote:
You don't have the truth; in fact, no one does or can ever have it under any possible circumstances.


That is what I am trying to prove. Christianity does not have the truth.


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Lark
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
I'd like to ask everyone again to keep it cool. Despite it's compelling subject which I'm sure a lot of you are interested in discussing, this thread is highly likely to become a flame war, and if the discussion gets tense again, it will be locked. This is a warning.

Bruno's a bad*ss


I was wondering if anyone's heard the theory about he prophecey of the village idiot ruling the world (or something to that effect) pertaining to Bush being the president? And what they think about it.
(Sorry if something like this has already been mentioned. I haven't read the thread because I'm so over arguing about Christianity)


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Lark wrote:
I was wondering if anyone's heard the theory about he prophecey of the village idiot ruling the world (or something to that effect) pertaining to Bush being the president? And what they think about it.


I've never heard this. Do you have a link to somewhere where I could check it out?

Lark wrote:
(Sorry if something like this has already been mentioned. I haven't read the thread because I'm so over arguing about Christianity)


Oh, so you're better than us now?


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Lark
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
I've never heard this. Do you have a link to somewhere where I could check it out?

I'll look into it.

DayLight wrote:
Oh, so you're better than us now?

No way man - I'll discuss your other beliefs w/ you anyday. You're pm was very interesting.


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zero_saiyaman
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
That is true, but it still does not explain this-
Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will
be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ
version).
This is a failed prophesy, no way around it.


Lol, actually that prophasy is fulfilled by the Book of Revelations and John, who saw the end exactly as Jesus was saying someone would without dying first. So, it does answer that issue, even if it does seem like a cheat of sorts? But then, if things were ended then it'd have been bad news for us and the rest of people throughout the 2000 years currently passed XD. That's really rather an ancient argument, albeit interesting.

Edit: Also, Danial 9:26 says, "After the sixty-two 'sevens', the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."
So, Jerusalem is not destroyed by a flood in that prophesy. And infact, everything decreed there has happened, including the time scale which has been perfectly on the dot. After Christ's death too, the Romans burned the city and destroyed the temple completely.

I'm still looking into Isaiah, as it's hard to get actual good references on this; some say Damascus was destroyed by the Assyrians in 732 bc, others by Babylon and even Mongols (in 1400 ad) later on too. There have been numerous other events that have left Damascus in ruins. And since "no longer a city" and "heap of ruins" is subjective, it's hard to say what would equal a good qualifier; which makes it a ubiquitous prophesy for destruction, but probably it's ment to be around the time of the other subsequent prophesies, which would then coincide with the Assyrian destruction. I need to find a fully reliable source, as this general information comes from the Syrian Embassy and other snippits, but I haven't gotten a full encyclopedia artical yet (Wikipedia is not a valid source of knowledge to me, as it's too full of possible half truths, as my greek professor has pointed out on her review of it [since anyone at all can write and edit articles]).

Edit 2: Ok, I got some better sources and am pretty confident about the 732 bc date for the destruction of Damascus.
http://history-world.org/assyria_part_nine.htm
and http://www.1911ency.org/D/DA/DAMASCUS.htm are two sources that both talk about it and seem reliable. The latter also speaks on the absence of records about Damascus from history from 720 till 333 bc. A curious thing, eh? I've seen that same sentiment in other sources, such as the Syrian Embassy site. Also, when Tiglath-Pileser III conquored Damascus in 732, he ended the Damascus empire and Aram, and since then Damascus has never been an independant power, as the prophesy implies will happen: "The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damasucs" Isaiah 17:3 (which also further puts this prophesy as one for a past "got conquored" event). This prophesy for Damascus's destruction is not unlike any of those for Jerusalem, yet Jerusalem was rebuilt, and the prophesy never says Damascus won't be rebuilt or will stay "not a city" forever.

I think alot of the weird junk about this "prophesy not being fulfilled" comes from people trying to say that it isn't so that means that the US will destroy Damascus, and the world will end right there and then, dun dun dun! Seriously, the only people pitching around the idea are people trying to harp about the apocalypse. Personally, I think, as bible schollars seem to do too on their sites and bible annotations (which I don't include because of possible bias), that this prophesy is about that event and not something apocalyptic.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

zero_saiyaman wrote:
This prophesy for Damascus's destruction is not unlike any of those for Jerusalem, yet Jerusalem was rebuilt, and the prophesy never says Damascus won't be rebuilt or will stay "not a city" forever.

You don't have to go that further in your interpretation, Zero—just say: oh well, if it's really the end of the World, one would suppose the city of Dimašk, along with all other cities, will be destroyed.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

zero_saiyaman wrote:
DayLight wrote:
That is true, but it still does not explain this-
Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will
be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ
version).
This is a failed prophesy, no way around it.


Lol, actually that prophasy is fulfilled by the Book of Revelations and John, who saw the end exactly as Jesus was saying someone would without dying first. So, it does answer that issue, even if it does seem like a cheat of sorts? But then, if things were ended then it'd have been bad news for us and the rest of people throughout the 2000 years currently passed XD. That's really rather an ancient argument, albeit interesting.


That is kind of a cheat, but at first glance, it does fit. I will think on it a bit more, but I think you may be right. I have a list of some other 'failed' prophesies', I'll post them later and see what you think about them.


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zero_saiyaman
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

LOL that is so true Bruno! I didn't even think of it like that, major props.

And sure thing Daylight smile. You know I love discussing stuff with you; I'd love to see what other questions and thoughts there are. I will probably be around intermittantly still (papers, egads), but I'll do my best to keep stuff moving.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Ezekiel 26:3-4,7-12 A prophecy of the downfall of Tyre (Tyrus). King Nebuchadnezzer of
Babylon will come with an army, batter down the walls and towers, trample the streets, kill all the
people, and toss the rubble into the sea. Tyre will come to a terrible end and "never shalt be any
more" (KJ version). Despite the prophecy, and in spite of much effort. Babylon failed to capture
or destroy Tyre.


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Freecube
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PostPosted: Tue 02 May, 2006  Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
Ezekiel 26:3-4,7-12 A prophecy of the downfall of Tyre (Tyrus). King Nebuchadnezzer of
Babylon will come with an army, batter down the walls and towers, trample the streets, kill all the
people, and toss the rubble into the sea. Tyre will come to a terrible end and "never shalt be any
more" (KJ version). Despite the prophecy, and in spite of much effort. Babylon failed to capture
or destroy Tyre.


Eze 29:12 And I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated countries, and her cities shall be a desolation forty years among cities that are laid waste. I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them through the countries.
Eze 29:13 "For thus says the Lord GOD: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered,
Eze 29:14 and I will restore the fortunes of Egypt and bring them back to the land of Pathros, the land of their origin, and there they shall be a lowly kingdom.
Eze 29:15 It shall be the most lowly of the kingdoms, and never again exalt itself above the nations. And I will make them so small that they will never again rule over the nations.

Eze 29:19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off its wealth and despoil it and plunder it; and it shall be the wages for his army.
Eze 29:20 I have given him the land of Egypt as his payment for which he labored, because they worked for me, declares the Lord GOD.

prove that to me, that for 1 second, tyre was never captured by babylon. you cant because history isnt entirely written down, there is no record of it NOT being torn down, yet there is here in the bible that it WAS torn down.


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