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Do dreams really exist?

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NoctisLabyrinthus
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Do dreams really exist?
PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

I've come across a article by Campbell Purton where he argues that dreams are not taking place a mind of a sleeping human, but are somehow created at the moment of awakening. Despite having had an isolated LD experience himself he further argues, that lucid dreams are either not dreams but some kind of hallucination or dreams, but not conscious.

And I thought that nature of dreams and lucid dreaming in particular was firmly established by past decades of research...


The article is here: http://tinyurl.com/ybwzxm


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krakatoa
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

He can argue all he wants but it's really only a matter of "how it works" not "if it exists" Anyone can prove to oneself that dreams do exist, because we experience them. If the experience is only a delusion than THAT is what a dream is.

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NoctisLabyrinthus
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

krakatoa wrote:
If the experience is only a delusion than THAT is what a dream is.


OK, I was bit misleading in my post's title and in the text itself. It should have been stated as "he argues that we do not experience dreams during sleep" not that they don't exist (that would be hard to dispute indeed).

-NL


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huggkruka
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

We-ell. Semi-communication in dreams kind of disproves of that. I would pay him no mind. It's tempting to say this as well since it shifts the problem away from the embarrasing fact that no-one knows what dreams are.



Last edited by huggkruka on Wed 17 Jan, 2007; edited 1 time in total
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Medical Waste
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

He is an idiot.
Messages have been sent from lucid dreamers by moving their eyes while asleep, back and forth.


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Atheist
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

It's an interesting theory, but there's just too much evidence against it. Using an EEG machine, we can see exactly when people are dreaming (by monitoring brain activity and watching for signs that the person is "thinking" at the same level as they would when awake), and we can even tell precisely when they experience moments of heightened emotions or excitement within the dream. Also, it's not called REM sleep for no reason. Your eyes are actually moving around as you examine things in the dream, because they're the one part of you that isn't paralyzed during that stage of sleep.

In addition to that, sounds from the external world can make their way into a dream, and the dreamer can accurately report on them after the event. For example, I've had dreams that incorporate sounds from a TV show or movie that I left on when I dozed off, and upon waking up, I could tell what part of my dream must have been inspired by those sounds. I'd say it's pretty clear from these examples that dreams play out in real-time while you sleep, and aren't simply created in an instant upon waking up.


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BeaSweetie
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

Well there are a few debates.

I mean, one phsycologist can say
"dreams are just rapid thoughts and signals of electricity being fired rapidly while your sleeping"

Then theres Frued saying no there are symbols.

theres are so many opinions. who knows?


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vv.Aviran
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

Well, I thought about what you said, NoctisLabyrinthus, and I then I realized that it doesn't really matters when we dream - what really matters it how you remember your dreams in the morning. Even if dreaming isn't real, when you wake up you can remember you dream, and that's what really matters...

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Petter
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

Agree with most here, this sounds as crap, as atheist said, why does the eyes move and etc then ? smile

One thing that used to bother me when going to sleep was this :

"What if i go to this GREAT place when i sleep, but forget in the morning?"

That question ate quite some hours of my sleep grin


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NullAshton
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

No, dreams don't exist, they're all figments of your imagination.

Uh... does it matter if they're created upon awakening or not? You still remember them all the same.


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krakatoa
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

Dreams exist AS figments of our imaginations. They ARE real, existing figments of our imagination that do exist, in out minds. They are as much a part of reality as any other experience, they are just not physical.

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Sleepyhead
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

I have just skimmed through the content of the lecture, and there are some interesting points made (even though I personally disagree with a lot of them ).

The part that really caught my attention was what the speaker had to say about lucid dreaming:

Quote:
Some people, I understand, can remain in the dream reality, while appreciating that it is a dream. They can then do all sorts of extraordinary things which would be impossible in waking reality.

This idea of an alternative dream reality in which one could be fully conscious has a certain appeal to it. But I don’t really think it makes any sense. At the moment at which the dreamer becomes aware that they are dreaming, they are presumably aware that in reality they are lying in bed. But if that is so then all that is happening is that while lying in bed, awake, they are experiencing intense imagery. This is little different from an hallucinatory experience. The person is not dreaming; they are awake but having unusual experiences. The alternative is that in the dream the person wakes up and thinks that they are dreaming. I think that this is quite a common experience. But to dream that one is having a lucid dream is not to have a lucid dream, any more than to dream that one has squared the circle is actually to have squared the circle. This person is still in the dream. Their experience is not lucid. I conclude that strictly speaking there are no lucid dreams: the experiences which are called ‘lucid dreaming’ are either genuinely lucid, but not really dreams, or they are genuinely dreams but not really lucid.


This sums up the apparent contridiction of having conscious thought when unconscious - something that people have been arguing should not be possible. I don't think it can be explained away simply, but just shows how little we know about the complexities of the mind.

I don't totally disagree with the earlier part of the lecture where the speaker talks about 'making dreams up when we awake' and think perhaps there is some element of truth in what he says. I do think that we dream through the night as our brain sorts through thought processes and experiences that have happened in the day, but I also think that as we recall dreams, details are added to make sense and help us to interpret and analyse dreams with the waking mind. Really facinating stuff...


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Medical Waste
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

Dreams and your imagination are different things.

It has been PROVEN that dreaming about something is more like doing it then imagining doing it.


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krakatoa
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2007  Reply with quote

He doesn't HAVE an argument against lucid dreaming. He only argues that if one has consciousness one musy have awakened wich contradicts the EEGs from lucid dreamers that show that they were in fact asleep. His second version, that the lucidity is false, is a better argument, but based solely on doubt. I think that Laberge made a much better point saying that if one was unconscious when dreaming, remembering would be impossible. I guess that's why this guy wants dreams to occur after awakening so it makes sense to remember dreams. Why can't he just observe the world and not try to explain the world first?

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