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Are OBEs a variation of LDs?
 
Once you have completed experiment 1 or experiment 2 (read first post), please enter your results in the poll to be tallied.
Once you have completed experiment 1 or experiment 2 (read first post), please enter your results in the poll to be tallied.
OBE: marking on SAME side
33%
 33%  [ 1 ]
OBE: marking on OPPOSITE side
66%
 66%  [ 2 ]
LD: marking on SAME side
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
LD: marking on OPPOSITE side
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 3


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kmcdonald
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Are OBEs a variation of LDs?
PostPosted: Thu 01 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

I recently thought of an experiment that might settle this question. People have been arguing for a while that OBEs are just the same as LDs, and then there are others who say that OBEs are contained within your mind but you are still experiencing sensory via your brain directly, then there are the others who say that OBEs are completely different than any other plane of being and when you have an OBE you are releasing your spirit or soul into a higher dimension to explore the world around you from a different vantage point. From this, there are two main camps:

1.) OBEs are a representation of reality from experiences (that is, you are in the same state of being as a LD, and the experience is entirely generated by your mind without any external input), but for some undetermined reason they are more "real" than LDs.

2.) OBEs are created while you are potentially in a different state of being, but definitely created via external input. That is, the experience is not confined to your brain.

My experiment will help give us a better idea of which one is true.

To participate you must have a definitive feature on your body that is confined to one side of your body. For example, you can have a mole on your left upper lip, or you can have your hair parted one way, or you could have a scar on one arm and not the other, or a tattoo on one leg but not the other. If you don't have a definitive body-side-associated marking, you can simulate one with a sticker, but these results will be handled as a different case.

You may choose to do one or both of the following:

Experiment 1.) Induce a Lucid dream (WILD or not, it doesn't matter). "Clone" yourself, imagine yourself splitting into two different people. Look at the mark on the clone. Is it on the same side as you in real life? That is, if you have a mole on the right side of your face in real life, does the clone have it on the right side, or the left side of their face?

Experiment 2.) Have an OBE. Look at your face, the body lying on the bed. Is your marking on the correct side of your body?

This will help us to determine whether or not the image of ourselves in an OBE is created from external or internal inputs.

Please post your experience here, or just vote if you donít feel like posting. I would like to do two polls, but it doesnít allow for that and we only really need a tally.

Please only vote once per experience, and only post your experience instead of voting if you had to simulate the marking.

IMPORTANT! READ AGAIN: Please only vote once per experience, and only post your experience instead of voting if you had to simulate the marking.


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Jack
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

This is smart thought experiment:)Im just afraid that there are enough ppl able to "have ld" and "have obe" just like this.
Second thing is...sometimes its really hard to say what was it and till now only one know cryteria is just personal point of view-very subjective:(


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kmcdonald
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

It will be very subjective, but that just means we have to interpret the results that way. As far as getting results... That will be hard. Hopefully if this is around for long enough we can have enough people who just "have an OBE" or "have an LD" ^^

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Lenny
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

Is this experiment to see whether an OBE invloves the real you or an imaginary you?

I think that the way you have asked people to go about the experiment will effect the results. If someone goes into a LD thinking about their mole on there left cheek or whatever then their 'dreamself' will probably have a mole on it's left cheek, just 'cos thats on your mind! I'm not wise enough to think of an alternative expt, wish I was. Have many people given any results yet?

I reckon I have had both LD and OBE. I think they are the same thing except an OBE is a LD but in the surroundings that you were induced in. An OBE seems more real because it is in familiar surroundings with the people you know.

I'm probably out of my depth here with all you experienced LDers and OBEers but let me know what you think!
grin


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Djem
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

I'm alitle comfused, how is this gonna prove anything. First of all, inducing OBE isn't easy and often happends uncontrolled so just doing that isn't easy.
2nd, the only way this marking thing can prove anything is if the marking is on gone, or at the wrong side in an OBE (if you don't see you body as it is in reality, you aren't looking at yourself from an external body) The cloning yourself in a LD also sounds comfusing, what is that supose to prove, If you have controll enougth of your LD you can put as many markings on the body you would want to, couse your clone is just in your mind and is not real.

I'm sorry for being this sceptic, I'm usualy not but I just don't understand how this is proving a question that big. I migth be wrong about all this so please give an explaining reply if you got one.


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kmcdonald
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

Simply put, this is the basis for the experiment (despite techincal difficulties, like actually having OBEs, to overcome): if OBEs are internal (a type of lucid dream), then the OBE world should be similar to your dream world. Whenever we see ourselves, we only see ourselves reflected left-to-right, never reflected correctly (unless it is TV or a photo, etc) as others see us. Hence, if we looked at ourselves in an OBE and it was internal, we would see our body as its reflection, the same way we do when we clone and look at ourselves in lucid dreams.

The shortest explanation I can give: if OBEs are internal, there will be evidence when we can see whether or not our body is created by our mind's mirrored body image or not.


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Djem
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PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug, 2002  Reply with quote

I think I understand clearer know. Would love to help you out, but I don't know if I can clone myself in a LD. I don't have complete control yet, and I have only had one OBE. sorry.

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Monitor199a
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Sep, 2002  Reply with quote

Never thought about cloning myself before.

From my point of view, OBE's are LD's where we still have some sensory input from our real bodies at first.


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kmcdonald
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Sep, 2002  Reply with quote

I agree, monitor199a, but we don't have any evidence for that opinion yet.

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explora
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Another thing
PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep, 2002  Reply with quote

My opinion is that we can access knowledge about the world around us through lucid dreaming or out of body experiences. I would say that we are looking at the energy configuration of the world around us, and thus there are obviously multiple views - each with their own unique information evident.

In order to test this belief - you have to be very specific with your intent in the lucid dream, ie make sure that you are actually watching the physical body as it stands in ordinary reality.


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Jeff
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PostPosted: Mon 04 Nov, 2002  Reply with quote

Hi Kmcdonald nice thought 4 an Obe testing! Yep!

I also wanted to know if an obe is from our brain or astral plane or other dimension...or even other universe, or just a ld that gives u a dream body double, like for instance laying in your bed in your bedroom.

So i thought of a test that just would answer the question if a obe is a ld..
because thats most easy to test from all..

The test i thought of is based on a very simple thing...and that is in a ld I can change scenery as I like...changes gravity, let things float..and so on..
So if a Obe is a ld I should be able to make a change to my body double in bed because its only a dream double and not real me.

So i decided to do this the next time I had a Obe (dont have them often)
I waited for 7 months.
Then one night I just went to bed around 24:00 and fall a sleep, from there i just know i saw myself floating above my bed and i saw myself..also laying in bed sleeping..i noticed at once i had full consciousness and thought "Wow an Obe" Then i remembered my testing..and i just flew to the ground and danced a little and sang..i often do that when i want easy dream control..association works then better 4 me...
So while i danced i looked at my sleeping body..and i tried to be not to excited so i would take no chance for increasing a soon wake up if this was a ld and not a obe...
Then i stopped and tried to let my chair float in the room. as a test..it was easy..then i wished my bedroom window was open (took 2 times)and looked at my body..i tried to associate that my body in bed levitated with blankets and all from bed into the air. Slowly that happend and i just stirred my body that now floated in the air out of the window
and dropped it down in the garden one floor lower. I was thrilled, i had done the test...i focussed intense on waking up..wich i do by focussing on the spot on my forhead between the eyebrows..works always 4 me..ppl call this also the third eye spot.
And after a sec of 4 i woke up in bed..i touched my real body..there was no damage..i felt ok, and I walked to the window that was now closed again..and in the garden was nothing special to c..

So i conclude that this Obe was just an ld!
And 4 me that means that it is proof that a part of the obe's that ppl experience can be lds..i dont say all..but a part 4 sure are lds in disguise..

So ppl do like me and test your body double...and i f u cant levitate like i can in a ld just drag your body from bed to another room in the house..and c were u wake up..do tests 4 all of us.

I did this kind of test only twice. when i had an Obe..The second time i levitated a car in the street from a neighbour..on its back lol!
But when i woke up..it showed again that it was only a ld.
There was no car in the street laying upside down from my neighbours next door.

Dont know what i will test if i have another Obe!
I hope i get an obe next time that aint a ld...would be more of a chalenge to do testings for...yep!

Any of u did such tests while having an obe?
Let me now plz..would be nice to hear what happend..

Greetings,
Jeff


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PhanthomSpectre
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Dec, 2002  Reply with quote

[color=green]
I just thought I would add before I left that:

If we really did have an OBE, how would we really know it?
Because we dont know what its like to be dead and outside our body!!!
Thus we only deal with the world from the prespective of when we are alive.
Even if we were "dead" for 20-40 minutes and were revived, the life force is still in the body for at least that long, slowly dissapating.

However if we were dead a whole day or longer... then ressurected
Then we could prove it.

I would like to point out that when Jesus ressurected "Lazarus"
(im not a bible freak but its a good example!) HE DIDNT complain about being brought back. There is no account in the bible about him saying anything about being dead. Because of that, we know there is no existence. So Jesus action showed that people CAN be ressurected though.
(Hey, I would like to know how...)
alien


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Lucidity_Master
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PostPosted: Wed 24 Dec, 2003  Reply with quote

I think you should add a no marking type of column because when I did the experiment there was no marking at all

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Samson
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Jan, 2004  Reply with quote

I would have thought the best way to test if it really is an obe and not a LD, would be to ask someone to hide something in your house in a known spot that you aren't going to look in in real life, then when you beleive your in an obe go see whats hidden there. Ive only had a few dreams that i thought were obes at the time and only realised after waking that i wasn't actually having one at all. However thats a good idea i've just had and im gonna try it.

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∆zen
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Jan, 2004  Reply with quote

if in all obe's the bodymark was on the correct side that still wouldn't prove its not a dream cause an obe could be the minds recreation of the last observed visual input. This visual imput is a combination of the visual data you create when you look at your body and the info you create when you see someone else laying on a bed. So you can project your own body in the third person perspective, which is also the perspective you have if you look at your clone. So it could be that the difference between an obe and a lucid dream is that in the obe you recreate scenery which is more in tune with your reallife memory

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