Something is making me want to get to know you more…
or you could phrase it
“I would like to know you more!”
unless that something is a lust for powers ? 
that won’t lead anyone anywhere, the system blocks it.
" Something is making me want to get to know you more… "
Im right here 
or should i say, here, there and everywhere …? ^
Ha no. It’s the fact I have more back and forths with you than anyone else. I’d like to know some body also interested in lucid dreams.
I’d like to insert some basic physics into your discussion Wonderland.
All I want to say is there are two ways used by humans to fly at “low” energies: The first is by increasing the float so it is stronger than gravity (Like an airship, for instance) and second, creating areas with low pressure so that they will “suck” the object up (Like an aeroplane and an helicopter). Those are the only ways to fly without using very high amounts of energies (Such as magnets, or rockets).
So yeah, if we do can fly, it will probably be one of those three ways: Either increasing our float enough Or draining our weight, Which means: EIther we keep the same mass and get extremly big, or we remove enough mass, or we decrease the earth gravity. Since I assume you cannot do any of those in ANY way (Imagine becoming as big as a building to fly…), then it must be some other way: Either create a low pressure area or just pull the air.
To do both those you need to move yourself or the air around you at great speeds: So in fact, anyone flying would create extreme winds around them. I believe you don’t think this to be the case either.
Now, unless you can use the friction with air to drag yourself up, the only way known to humans is by using a very high source of energy: Either pull or push yourself at great energies.
Assuming we can spend such energies, and we just don’t want to, or restrain ourselves in any other way - won’t atleast a portion of them seep through, affecting our day to day lives with exceptions to science? Won’t there will be found, in the nearly seven billion residents of the earth atleast some of this energy? What of non-civilized humans? They have no science, and still they don’t fly. Why? Do they not want to?
Therfore, even without claiming people can’t fly - I don’t wish to do that - I instead wish to defend science. The fault is not in the fact we research our world; The fault is, if we ever had the ability to fly, much older than that: It is of rulers and relegions, making people always be acertain there are greater forces then them who are allowed to do much more than them, while they are restrained by their laws and thinking paradigims (I think that’s the word, please don’t kill me)
Anyway, I’m not here to make any of you “understand we can’t fly”. I’m here to make you understand that you can’t blame science for everything we can’t do.
By the way - even if we can fly by using extreme energies (Labeled as you may wish) it will have to pull or push every part of our body simultaneously, or else it will be painful to fly at reletavly low speeds (run speeds, I think). If it does pull all our body at the same time - Then it probably is something that resides in every cell of ours, and not just the mind or heart.
One last thing - I understand it was just a matter of an analogy, and that you mean, at least at some layer, that we can do whatever we want to. But its different, much different than flying.
PS: Sorry for ranting! Hope its readable.
Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness creating them. edit: that’s Eintstein, not me
things that may seem impossible to us, may appear very possible after our own cloud of ignorance has been removed.
That claim means, more or less, that anything can happen. That is, of course, true. But if you put things into proportions - as in, what are the chances something will happen, rather than wether it will or not - Then I claim flying is essentially impossible.
Plus, you are forgetting the fact that seemingly unignorant creatures, such as kids, primitive life forms and non-civilized humans have all powers between the limits we know by scinece. None of them can fly.
This statement is false.
When you are born, you are already exposed to ideas that are planted on your SC.
People completely underestimate to power of this, but the result is that you have a whole bunch of beliefs that you don’t even begin to question. You take them as fundamental truth.
and if you want to talk about what is ‘likely’ to happen and put things into ‘proportions’,
considering the fact that a bit over 100 years ago, no one imagined the possibility of flying aircrafts, the fact that 30 years ago the USA government computer was not even 0.0001% strong as everyone phone today, and today, with the click of a button, you can have information right in front of your eyes in a second about anything you want to know, whether its art, architecture, lucid dreams or the japanese crime rate and most importantly, considering the fact that in just 1995 more information became available than in the whole history of our civilization and that the evolution rate is accelerating with every moment that passes, ‘proportions’ are established.
The only reason for someone to claim that something is impossible is having the arrogance to think he’s already in a position to know it all.
If we were having this conversation 40 years ago (face 2 face of course…) and would talk about today’s possibilities, you would probably be stand erect just as you do protecting your beliefs.
Nothing is impossible , it is only our beliefs, ego and arrogance that persuade us of our limitations in order to lay calmly in the cool zone. and more importantly, “The implications and consequences of your self-imposed limitations can
only be seen and appreciated by someone else who does not share them.” - thomas campbell
Well, these eubjects are seldom without a vast array of opinions, so here’s my 2 cents;
The human body is simply an array of atoms, so if one were to get technical, anything is possible.
Atoms are over 90% empty space, held together by an electomagnetic current. Although it is still not fully understood, these currents hold all matter together. In the days of alchemy, one would try and convert matter. The same principles could apply here. Monks are able to create heat through meditation and focus. They will sit in an icy cave and steam will come off of them.
So in no technical terms, if one were to focus on lessening the bond between atoms in the body, perhaps the gravitational force could be tampered with to a degree that one could float? On the other hand, we do not know if gravity could be tampered with as well, to create a pocket to travel in…
I mean, hell, I’m STILL am amazed that a giant chunk of metal like a 747 can even get off the ground. If you asked me 100 years ago I would laugh in your face!! 
If i’m understanding the question correctly, I think you are asking if one were to meditate on flying for a long time or meditate on losing your mass or anything like that, I would have to say the answer is no.
The mind and the world around us are two different places. In our mind, all things are possible. The world around us, however, has laws in science. So in our minds we must develop a way to make what is possible in our minds possible in the world around us.
So back to the original question; can we fly? Of course we can, we developed planes.
A plane, or any tool that humans have created, is a direct link between our mind and the world. Man wondered for centruies how they could fly. I bet some monks spent their lifetime trying to figure this out (maybe they figured it out, i don’t know) Then one day a few men figured out how to fly, and it has everything to do with making tools and nothing to do with just flying
I am not quite sure I understood that sentence. Do you claim that by being born we are stopping to question, as in, once we see the outside world? If not, will an un-tended child (by today’s terms) will be questioning the world around them?
Moreso, will a baby shown flying people as a normal thing start to fly too, since it will look perfectly normal to him?
Proporions are due since all the claims so far to do “unnatural” things were proven false, or not correct, more or less during all history. Not flying, not telephaty, nothing at all. Does that mean such things can’t happen? No, it just means there is less of a chance for them to happen. And that’s exactly proportions - if in the last 4 billion years not one atom had gone against the laws of physics (Which are still a mystery to us), there are low chances of one doing so. Again, it doesn’t mean an atom will never stray - it means that we shouldn’t fear the day it will happen, since there are such low chances, as proven by statistics, that it will happen.
Ah, but again, you miss my argument. I don’t say I know everything, just like I don’t say humans can’t fly: I say humans are not a 747, and thus cannot fly like it does. I’m saying that we have seen stuff similar to today’s computer much before the first computer (2000 years ago electricity was given it’s name). So I’m saying such abilities should give us some headway before showing up - for there will always be anomalies - and since history is recorded for a few thousand years already, i find it hard to believe no such trails have been found - no unnatural ability was found in humans. Not in humans with different minds, not in humans with normal minds who grew away from society, not in any human on earth.
Again, what I’m saying - humans might have the ability to fly, just like any other ability: I don’t know wether they do or not. But I can quite certainly say that I doubt humans have such abilities, simply because I have no reason to believe they do.
That’s a bold claim. Even if humans can fly and do other “unnatural” stuff, it still doesn’t mean we can do anything. We are not gods, wether we like it or not - We don’t have infinite power, even if our power is much greater than what little we currently know.
Entheoman - The reason a monk might be very hot while the area around him is cold probably does not lay in such delicate mechanics as movement of electrons: It would more probably be that he used a conventional heating mechanism - IE, sped up metabolism. This explanation sound much more plausible to me then saying he can move electrons with his will - Okam’s Razor.
Heh, then you’ll want to stay as far away from me as possible… 
What TwilightDreamer is talking about is a statistical argument, not a physical one. It’s got nothing to do with laws of science - it’s logic. Take all macro events here, observed throughout history. Not one has failed laws of physics. There may be a trillion events. So, the likelihood that one anomaly is waiting around the corner is very low, because there have already been a massive amount of chances for said anomaly to occur. Thousands upon thousands of standard deviations out, that’s for sure.
Oh, but can the laws of logic be destroyed into bits too? I’m sure you’re ready to come up with an argument that bypasses the ‘silly statistical argument’.
Well, I’ve got a logical reason as to why logic must be true. That may sound circular, but it’s not:
An illogical system cannot affect a logical one, because by definition ‘affecting’ is a logical action.
So with that simple statement (that I came up with all by myself 
) we cannot bypass the original argument, and so we say that no, you can’t fly.
I’ll give a funny little way you could though:
Wait for a hell of a long time (googleplexes of years, I’m sure), or if you’re not willing to wait, get a probability manipulator, and then using the awesome laws of quantum mechanics, tunnel every single one of your atoms through all the air particles.
Yes, that’s actually very possible. By the tiniest chance that quantum mechanics is smiling upon you, you actually get to fly through the air and control it, because particles I suppose can appear in any place in the universe…just with sharply decreasing probabilities away from it’s first point.So yeah, you would be flying. You’d have to wait though, because a probability manipulator is fantasy.
oh my god yes. i think there’s a very good chance that somehow we have the ability to fly. my theory is that we have something within us that science can’t really explain yet that, if we could just tap into it, would allow us to fly. i think the problem would be finding it, becoming aware of it. like being blind and then being able to see all of a sudden. it’s something that was in you the whole time but you just never knew it was there. a sort of human energy.
douglas adams had an interesting theory about flying:
[spoiler]There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Pick a nice day, [The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy] suggests, and try it.
The first part is easy. All it requires is simply the ability to throw yourself forward with all your weight, and the willingness not to mind that it’s going to hurt.
That is, it’s going to hurt if you fail to miss the ground. Most people fail to miss the ground, and if they are really trying properly, the likelihood is that they will fail to miss it fairly hard.
Clearly, it is the second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
One problem is that you have to miss the ground accidentally. It’s no good deliberately intending to miss the ground because you won’t. You have to have your attention suddenly distracted by something else when you’re halfway there, so that you are no longer thinking about falling, or about the ground, or about how much it’s going to hurt if you fail to miss it.
It is notoriously difficult to prize your attention away from these three things during the split second you have at your disposal. Hence most people’s failure, and their eventual disillusionment with this exhilarating and spectacular sport.
If, however, you are lucky enough to have your attention momentarily distracted at the crucial moment by, say, a gorgeous pair of legs (tentacles, pseudopodia, according to phyllum and/or personal inclination) or a bomb going off in your vicinty, or by suddenly spotting an extremely rare species of beetle crawling along a nearby twig, then in your astonishment you will miss the ground completely and remain bobbing just a few inches above it in what might seem to be a slightly foolish manner.
This is a moment for superb and delicate concentration. Bob and float, float and bob. Ignore all consideration of your own weight simply let yourself waft higher. Do not listen to what anybody says to you at this point because they are unlikely to say anything helpful. They are most likely to say something along the lines of “Good God, you can’t possibly be flying!” It is vitally important not to believe them or they will suddenly be right.
Waft higher and higher. Try a few swoops, gentle ones at first, then drift above the treetops breathing regularly.
DO NOT WAVE AT ANYBODY.
When you have done this a few times you will find the moment of distraction rapidly easier and easier to achieve.
You will then learn all sorts of things about how to control your flight, your speed, your maneuverability, and the trick usually lies in not thinking too hard about whatever you want to do, but just allowing it to happen as if it were going to anyway.
You will also learn about how to land properly, which is something you will almost certainly screw up, and screw up badly, on your first attempt.
There are private clubs you can join which help you achieve the all-important moment of distraction. They hire people with surprising bodies or opinions to leap out from behind bushes and exhibit and/or explain them at the critical moments. Few genuine hitchhikers will be able to afford to join these clubs, but some may be able to get temporary employment at them.
i actually tried that once. painful. [/spoiler]
added spoiler tags to make it clear that it is all an Adam’s quote
You answered the question yourself. If you’re willing to accept that humans need oxygen and food & water, then why aren’t you willing to accept that we’re just an ordinary organism with no special powers? Humans can’t fly for a variety of reasons, thinking negative thoughts is the least of them. Sorry but humans don’t have magical powers.
magical powers, huh?
you know, magic is nothing more than something the observer doesn’t understand and can’t explain. it’s the classic - go back in time and show a cave man a light bulb and he’ll think it’s magic - senario. just because with our knowledge and understanding we have now we can’t explain how we could fly, doesn’t mean it’s not possible. we’re just ignorant of the possabilities.
Maybe God has limited us for one solid reason. In order to protect us from playing with other peoples realities. This makes sense in the discussion of Lucid Dreams, you have your OWN world where everything is possible. Where if you made Lava float from Burger King no one else would be affected… make sense? So to answer my original question. YES we can fly… in Lucid Dreams, Ha.
Oh and Lucid Rad, we have tons of magical powers. Like Todzak said we just figured them out; there’s alot less magic to it now. Having a baby is nothing but magic. We all grow from one lil sperm and egg. MAGIC! The water cycle, just because we coined the term evaporation doesn’t make it any less magical, The design is mystifying. Follow?
I have to disagree (with todzak that is).
A cave man thinks that a light bulb is magic because he is ignorant of electricity and the effect it produces as it passes through the filament.
The reason we believe that we cannot fly is precisely because we understand the physics behind flight so well. We understand the concepts of pressure, drag, lift, gravity, and aerodynamics.
While you exist in this universe you must follow it’s fundamental rules. Go ahead and drop a pen on the floor as many times as you like. Use whatever incantations or channel whatever supernatural forces you like, but the pen will always fall to the floor. There are forces which exist in nature, they cannot be wished away, they must be overcome. Humans are simply unequipped overcome the force of the earth’s gravity without assistance (we can fall just fine though). In order to even stand upright you must overcome the forces of gravity with muscular exertion. In order to keep the muscles working you eat and drink and breathe. Like it or not you’re an organic machine, every atom in the universe is exerting forces on you every moment of your life, and there’s nothing you can do about it.
I’m trying to follow you here but I’m getting mixed messages…
You’re right in the sense that humans are limited in their perception of the universe. For all we know aliens could be watching us from a 4th dimension.
Dreams are another matter entirely, they are formed in your brain not outside of it. As long as you are inside of your head you can do whatever you want with your reality.
I don’t really follow, no.
I think we’re talking about two different things here.