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Wond3rland
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Anybody besides me....
PostPosted: Sun 01 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Okay, this first line might be far out there (I tend to be) does anybody else think humans might possess the ability to fly? I mean yah, we are heavier than birds, don't get me wrong. I'm sure the first response is "No, we have gravity." Yah I know we have gravity. But... if gravity was purely the reason a 500 ton Aircraft carrier couldn't float, much less a 747 fly. See what I'm getting at. I'm a realist, of course they have engines... I got that. But that lil example does prove that gravity is NOT what is keeping from doing it. We see things "Defy" gravity all the time.

I feel al little more clarification is necessary. Alright, now Im not sure if we can be like superman, or like birds and flap our arms really really really fast. I don't think so. I think humans do possess something inside them however (call it energy, chi, god, soul, spirit, or whatever). And what we possess defies all logic. Believe me, IF THIS WAS ALL THERE IS, HUMANS WOULD NOT... I REPEAT!!! HUMANS WOULD NOT WANT MORE. Some of you are saying well it's our nature to question?? or our nature to want more. Your right, it is... and why is that??? Why are we on a forum talking about controlling dreams when we have utterly all control in waking life. I do not know. I am not separating myself, because I feel the same thing pulling me towards "Enlightenment" as you all do too. Hence, why I stay on this forum.

So all this comes back to the crazy, absurd, question I posed. Can we fly??? If you'd like take it one step further... is there anything we REALLY CAN'T do??? I'm willing to draw the line at Oxygen, yah we need that Food & Water. But Maybe we have fallen so far from our "ideal state" that we have lost touch with not only the ability to control our dreams, but to control real life. (assuming you have logic or reason, and aren't trying to inflict your will on someone else. Example: turning your mom into a goldfish. I believe that's impossible on the simple grounds your messing with someone else.)

Just ask yourself, "Can we not do stuff, because we REALLY can't. Or because throughout the ages we have blocked off our own abilities with walls of 'fact' and 'reason' through the misinterpretation of science??"

... I tend to Wond3r about things


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Wond3rland
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

I know it's far out there. But are any of us on a position to say what's really "possible"?

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

with the right control of subtle energies a human can do miraculous things.

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relV
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

" Just ask yourself, "Can we not do stuff, because we REALLY can't. Or because throughout the ages we have blocked off our own abilities with walls of 'fact' and 'reason' through the misinterpretation of science??" "

The latter is correct.

" But are any of us on a position to say what's really "possible"? "

Anything is possible.

Can you fly ?
yes, you can, once you truly see nothing miraculous about it.

Take a look at my Siddhis topic
I think you'll find it very interesting, feel free to pose any questions that may arise


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Wond3rland
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Something is making me want to get to know you more...

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

or you could phrase it

"I would like to know you more!"

unless that something is a lust for powers ? smile


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relV
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Eyelids wrote:
or you could phrase it

"I would like to know you more!"

unless that something is a lust for powers ? smile

lach1 lach2 lach1

that won't lead anyone anywhere, the system blocks it.

" Something is making me want to get to know you more... "

Im right here smile

or should i say, here, there and everywhere ..? ^


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Wond3rland
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Ha no. It's the fact I have more back and forths with you than anyone else. I'd like to know some body also interested in lucid dreams.

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TwilightDreamer
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

I'd like to insert some basic physics into your discussion Wonderland.

All I want to say is there are two ways used by humans to fly at "low" energies: The first is by increasing the float so it is stronger than gravity (Like an airship, for instance) and second, creating areas with low pressure so that they will "suck" the object up (Like an aeroplane and an helicopter). Those are the only ways to fly without using very high amounts of energies (Such as magnets, or rockets).

So yeah, if we do can fly, it will probably be one of those three ways: Either increasing our float enough Or draining our weight, Which means: EIther we keep the same mass and get extremly big, or we remove enough mass, or we decrease the earth gravity. Since I assume you cannot do any of those in ANY way (Imagine becoming as big as a building to fly...), then it must be some other way: Either create a low pressure area or just pull the air.

To do both those you need to move yourself or the air around you at great speeds: So in fact, anyone flying would create extreme winds around them. I believe you don't think this to be the case either.

Now, unless you can use the friction with air to drag yourself up, the only way known to humans is by using a very high source of energy: Either pull or push yourself at great energies.

Assuming we can spend such energies, and we just don't want to, or restrain ourselves in any other way - won't atleast a portion of them seep through, affecting our day to day lives with exceptions to science? Won't there will be found, in the nearly seven billion residents of the earth atleast some of this energy? What of non-civilized humans? They have no science, and still they don't fly. Why? Do they not want to?

Therfore, even without claiming people can't fly - I don't wish to do that - I instead wish to defend science. The fault is not in the fact we research our world; The fault is, if we ever had the ability to fly, much older than that: It is of rulers and relegions, making people always be acertain there are greater forces then them who are allowed to do much more than them, while they are restrained by their laws and thinking paradigims (I think that's the word, please don't kill me)

Anyway, I'm not here to make any of you "understand we can't fly". I'm here to make you understand that you can't blame science for everything we can't do.

By the way - even if we can fly by using extreme energies (Labeled as you may wish) it will have to pull or push every part of our body simultaneously, or else it will be painful to fly at reletavly low speeds (run speeds, I think). If it does pull all our body at the same time - Then it probably is something that resides in every cell of ours, and not just the mind or heart.

One last thing - I understand it was just a matter of an analogy, and that you mean, at least at some layer, that we can do whatever we want to. But its different, much different than flying.

PS: Sorry for ranting! Hope its readable.


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relV
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness creating them. *edit: that's Eintstein, not me*

things that may seem impossible to us, may appear very possible after our own cloud of ignorance has been removed.


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TwilightDreamer
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

That claim means, more or less, that anything can happen. That is, of course, true. But if you put things into proportions - as in, what are the chances something will happen, rather than wether it will or not - Then I claim flying is essentially impossible.

Plus, you are forgetting the fact that seemingly unignorant creatures, such as kids, primitive life forms and non-civilized humans have all powers between the limits we know by scinece. None of them can fly.


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relV
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

This statement is false.

When you are born, you are already exposed to ideas that are planted on your SC.
People completely underestimate to power of this, but the result is that you have a whole bunch of beliefs that you don't even begin to question. You take them as fundamental truth.

and if you want to talk about what is 'likely' to happen and put things into 'proportions',
considering the fact that a bit over 100 years ago, no one imagined the possibility of flying aircrafts, the fact that 30 years ago the USA government computer was not even 0.0001% strong as everyone phone today, and today, with the click of a button, you can have information right in front of your eyes in a second about anything you want to know, whether its art, architecture, lucid dreams or the japanese crime rate and most importantly, considering the fact that in just 1995 more information became available than in the whole history of our civilization and that the evolution rate is accelerating with every moment that passes, 'proportions' are established.

The only reason for someone to claim that something is impossible is having the arrogance to think he's already in a position to know it all.
If we were having this conversation 40 years ago (face 2 face of course..) and would talk about today's possibilities, you would probably be stand erect just as you do protecting your beliefs.

Nothing is impossible , it is only our beliefs, ego and arrogance that persuade us of our limitations in order to lay calmly in the cool zone. and more importantly, "The implications and consequences of your self-imposed limitations can
only be seen and appreciated by someone else who does not share them." - thomas campbell


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Entheoman
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Well, these eubjects are seldom without a vast array of opinions, so here's my 2 cents;

The human body is simply an array of atoms, so if one were to get technical, anything is possible.

Atoms are over 90% empty space, held together by an electomagnetic current. Although it is still not fully understood, these currents hold all matter together. In the days of alchemy, one would try and convert matter. The same principles could apply here. Monks are able to create heat through meditation and focus. They will sit in an icy cave and steam will come off of them.

So in no technical terms, if one were to focus on lessening the bond between atoms in the body, perhaps the gravitational force could be tampered with to a degree that one could float? On the other hand, we do not know if gravity could be tampered with as well, to create a pocket to travel in...

I mean, hell, I'm STILL am amazed that a giant chunk of metal like a 747 can even get off the ground. If you asked me 100 years ago I would laugh in your face!! wink5


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callender55
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

If i'm understanding the question correctly, I think you are asking if one were to meditate on flying for a long time or meditate on losing your mass or anything like that, I would have to say the answer is no.

The mind and the world around us are two different places. In our mind, all things are possible. The world around us, however, has laws in science. So in our minds we must develop a way to make what is possible in our minds possible in the world around us.

So back to the original question; can we fly? Of course we can, we developed planes.

A plane, or any tool that humans have created, is a direct link between our mind and the world. Man wondered for centruies how they could fly. I bet some monks spent their lifetime trying to figure this out (maybe they figured it out, i don't know) Then one day a few men figured out how to fly, and it has everything to do with making tools and nothing to do with just flying


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TwilightDreamer
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

relV wrote:

When you are born, you are already exposed to ideas that are planted on your SC.
People completely underestimate to power of this, but the result is that you have a whole bunch of beliefs that you don't even begin to question. You take them as fundamental truth.


I am not quite sure I understood that sentence. Do you claim that by being born we are stopping to question, as in, once we see the outside world? If not, will an un-tended child (by today's terms) will be questioning the world around them?

Moreso, will a baby shown flying people as a normal thing start to fly too, since it will look perfectly normal to him?

relV wrote:


and if you want to talk about what is 'likely' to happen and put things into 'proportions',


Proporions are due since all the claims so far to do "unnatural" things were proven false, or not correct, more or less during all history. Not flying, not telephaty, nothing at all. Does that mean such things can't happen? No, it just means there is less of a chance for them to happen. And that's exactly proportions - if in the last 4 billion years not one atom had gone against the laws of physics (Which are still a mystery to us), there are low chances of one doing so. Again, it doesn't mean an atom will never stray - it means that we shouldn't fear the day it will happen, since there are such low chances, as proven by statistics, that it will happen.

relV wrote:

The only reason for someone to claim that something is impossible is having the arrogance to think he's already in a position to know it all.


Ah, but again, you miss my argument. I don't say I know everything, just like I don't say humans can't fly: I say humans are not a 747, and thus cannot fly like it does. I'm saying that we have seen stuff similar to today's computer much before the first computer (2000 years ago electricity was given it's name). So I'm saying such abilities should give us some headway before showing up - for there will always be anomalies - and since history is recorded for a few thousand years already, i find it hard to believe no such trails have been found - no unnatural ability was found in humans. Not in humans with different minds, not in humans with normal minds who grew away from society, not in any human on earth.

Again, what I'm saying - humans might have the ability to fly, just like any other ability: I don't know wether they do or not. But I can quite certainly say that I doubt humans have such abilities, simply because I have no reason to believe they do.

relV wrote:

Nothing is impossible , it is only our beliefs, ego and arrogance that persuade us of our limitations in order to lay calmly in the cool zone.


That's a bold claim. Even if humans can fly and do other "unnatural" stuff, it still doesn't mean we can do anything. We are not gods, wether we like it or not - We don't have infinite power, even if our power is much greater than what little we currently know.

Entheoman - The reason a monk might be very hot while the area around him is cold probably does not lay in such delicate mechanics as movement of electrons: It would more probably be that he used a conventional heating mechanism - IE, sped up metabolism. This explanation sound much more plausible to me then saying he can move electrons with his will - Okam's Razor.


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