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Genkai
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Schooling
PostPosted: Sun 03 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I've been following a heated debate lately, and I can't help but feel sorry for Killjoy; the one guy who contends that school isn't a concentration camp. You see, the website encourages people to drop out of school and pursue other avenues of education. However, I think that they over-prescribe this to the extent of hyperbolizing school's nominal flaws and almost creating a cult of sorts.

He's being ganged up on by a group of pseudo-anarchists who claim that he is a brainwashed government mole trying to prevent them from saving the world. It's a bit frightening to be honest.

Now I happen to agree with KJ, but what are your opinions on compulsory schooling?




Last edited by Genkai on Mon 04 May, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Lucidmobsir
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PostPosted: Sun 03 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I belive that it is very necessary, both for the brain building part of it, the literacy and the social interactions. Especially in the U.S. , children should go to school and finish high school, and then decide where they want to go with there lifes. But, in some nations, where the income of 2 parents is not enough, the children must work to survive, and cannot go to school.

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Bruno
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PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009  Reply with quote


(via toothpaste for dinner).

Schooling is over-rated, as a pilar of society, as a problem. Dropping out is also over-rated, as a solution to this problem, as a problem of its own. I don't think regular people should drop out. I don't think many wise people should drop out. It takes more than just your garden variety wisdom and a couple of street smarts to survive without a diploma in this little fake society of ours.

It's true that school almost doesn't promote learning. Most schools don't, at all. Some schools do, but very little. And even then, in a mechanical way, in which the best student is neither the smartest nor the wisest, being in fact usually the most prone to failing real life. (The best shot my certifiably most brilliant colleagues have in life is to become that variety of engineers and MDs who live stressful lives where they don't get to have a call, ever, at anything: just following orders and optimising equations).

But unless you're remarkable enough to have something more worthy of your time than school (or self important enough to believe you do), it remains a fact that finishing school never killed any one. (Give or take a couple of Columbine students).


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PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009  Reply with quote

rules and regulations curb intelligence and create a lowest common denominator,

the worst case situation arises in that the ability to regurge (itate) is valued over actual intelligence, and those administering statistics cannot tell the diffy


Plato's republic is the best model of education I have learned about :

everyone is taught to read and write, and after this, the children are supervised to see what their natural talents and interests are, and then shuffled into specialized schools to become apprentices so they may spend all of their education only learning what they need to excell in ,
(and while we're at it, in a utopian world, how to love and enter a state of divine peace , which can be sustained all day long, rather than to compete and fight and one-up every-one to succede )

(i don't think Plato advises that one but that's fine )

although our system is fine for now, because home-schooling is permitted, and we are a free enough nation to revise our flaws,

when i went to school i loved to learn, but this made me a target for those who did not, and they greatly harmed me with their judgments (though not physically) and curbed my enthusiasm ,

a teacher has an obligation to make sure that he can connect to every single student and peak their interest,

learning and fun must be equal, because when we study what we are naturally interseted in, we always have fun.
and again, standardized testing and mandatory competition through grades harms this process

this little boy i helped with math was perfectly good at it, but his self - esteem was so low he thought something was wrong with him, and so he put up the "i hate this i want to play" mask,

i payed very simple even modest attention to him and showed him the tricks i knew, and this love ,

changed him immediately

in a class of 30 ? how can this be done ?


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TwilightDreamer
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PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009  Reply with quote

The educational system, at least as far as I know it, is flawed, but it is certainly not a hellish brainwashing tool.

The reasons it is flawed contain the facts that parents expect schools to educate their children instead of teaching them, while schools expect children to be educated at home - expect in kindergarten, that is.

Another problem of schools, the way I see it, is that they promote success, and not education - at times, successful schools get funding for their success. This is an absurd, of course - since such schools are often the ones who were richer in the first place. So we get more money for the riches and less money for the poor and middle class - as is in capitalism.

Why, however, school isn't a hellish brainwashing mechanism? Simply because it is meant to promote pluralism and thinking - and yes, there are specific lessons which teach those values - though almost only in the beginning classes of elemantry school and kindergarten.

Just my two cents - you are entitled to your own opinion. I didn't make a long post with details, but it does explain my state of mind.


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Johnny Tambourine
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PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I personally hate school, but I still think it is a good idea to at least finish high school. I do get good grades, but all I do is sit there and do the work, which is not hard at all.

There are just two major complaints I have about school:
1. You have to get up way too early. Getting up at 6:00 AM every day, and we need 8 hours of sleep? That means going to bed at 10:00 PM. I don't think there are very many kids who go to bed that early... plus there are people with sleeping disorders that can't help it.
2. There is too much useless information. You should be able to choose what type of career you want by high school and take classes accordingly (some schools do actually do this.) If students are in the classes that interest them they are going to pay attention, actually learn something, and use the information later in life, rather than sit there in classes they hate. Yes, I know that you can choose classes in high school, but it is required to take certain ones and not everybody will like them.


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dreaminghamster
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PostPosted: Mon 04 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I'm graduating High School later this week. For the most part I've enjoyed it, but there are some major flaws.

First is that there is a sort of formula to the classes you have to take. In my first few years I took some summer classes to get ahead, and I had enough credits to graduate at the end of the first semester this year, so now I pay for it by taking two gym classes that serve no purpose but to keep me in school because there are no other classes available.

The other problem I have with it is that people are for the most part forced to go to school. Aside from taking the home schooling route, it's the law that children go until 16 when they're allowed to drop out. I wouldn't have dropped out but the problem with this is that you have a lot of people there who simply don't want to be there, they don't care about there grades and are just there because they have to be, this is for one a waste of money on the state's part, and it takes away from the students who do want to be there.

Anyway, I'm going to college in a few months and I hope it will be better with it being an option in stead of an obligation to go, and that classes will have a slightly more logical structure.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 May, 2009  Reply with quote

teaching yoga,

i wish to break down grammar

so to convey

goodness, because,

its beyond ,


to teach you know what you know
and you present it de-facto
yet it must be malleable so that it may fit the abilities of those surrounding you

the teacher knows that the students and the teacher are the same,
and works on, like sculpting, bringing out the purity within them

no matter what it is
without a soul that loves it, it is not

in high school band,
in middle school band
in fifth grade band

we respected
and i loved it
a few bad apples ruined band
9th grade high school, our band was incredible

10th grade - 12 th
down hill ,
so much
there were 40 of us or so
we took it seriously
no more than 7
likely 3
caused our decline,

to be a pillar of confidence,
while always lsitening,
yinyang

imagine school like a forum,
many do not need this words
some cannot receive them
some groove with them beautiful
those who are not interested do not click the thread


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Phi_guy
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PostPosted: Tue 05 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I actually like the idea of taking classes you can't stand. It gives a chance to learn skills like patience, self-discipline, and perseverance. In addition, there's nothing wrong with being well-rounded. As an example, I hate English class, and am no good at it. Therefore, I work extra-hard at it to get a good grade, my concentration skills improve, I have to force myself to write essays, so I become in more control over myself, and I even get a grudging respect for the subject. In short, I cheat the system to get the education I need, but that they don't give me.

You can learn a lot from almost any situation, especially if it's in school, if you just try.


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Johnny Tambourine
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PostPosted: Tue 05 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Phi_guy wrote:
I actually like the idea of taking classes you can't stand. It gives a chance to learn skills like patience, self-discipline, and perseverance. In addition, there's nothing wrong with being well-rounded. As an example, I hate English class, and am no good at it. Therefore, I work extra-hard at it to get a good grade, my concentration skills improve, I have to force myself to write essays, so I become in more control over myself, and I even get a grudging respect for the subject. In short, I cheat the system to get the education I need, but that they don't give me.

You can learn a lot from almost any situation, especially if it's in school, if you just try.


I wish I was as motivated as you. I don't really go to school to learn, just because it's required and a high school diploma is pretty much needed to earn decent money now days. Tech class, for me, is just awful. One tech credit is required so I decided to take it sooner rather than later. Every single project of mine has ended in utter failure. It's just so boring so I throw something together and write a report good enough that I won't fail. I'm not really learning much there.

Thinking more about it, there is something else about school I have a problem with. People don't learn very well reading textbooks and answering questions compared to simply having experience. Yes, it is important to learn about something before you go out and try it, but in school you spend too much time reading about it and not enough time actually practicing it. For example, if a surgeon has only read about a particular surgery and how to perform it, but hasn't actually performed it before, he is going to need someone who has had experience with it watching over him until the superior one is confident that he is ready to perform it by himself. Another example is learning to play an instrument. You can read as much about playing it as you want, but you will never get good if you don't practice.

Here is the point I'm trying to make: What's the use of the information if you can't actually use it?


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Phi_guy
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PostPosted: Thu 07 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Johnny Tambourine wrote:
Thinking more about it, there is something else about school I have a problem with. People don't learn very well reading textbooks and answering questions compared to simply having experience. Yes, it is important to learn about something before you go out and try it, but in school you spend too much time reading about it and not enough time actually practicing it. For example, if a surgeon has only read about a particular surgery and how to perform it, but hasn't actually performed it before, he is going to need someone who has had experience with it watching over him until the superior one is confident that he is ready to perform it by himself. Another example is learning to play an instrument. You can read as much about playing it as you want, but you will never get good if you don't practice.


What exactly do you propose? Take History for example. The only way I can think of to apply that is to use it to analyze current events. The problem: people are never rational about current events. Emotions would run high, and it would be chaos. I really am interested in this topic and would appreciate your input.


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moogle
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PostPosted: Thu 07 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Taking this practical method..

studying history would probably consist of finding the data yourself from various sources instead of just reading what is in the usual text books.

.... just to make a point, surgeons etc do a LOT of book learning before they practice on patients

Different methods of learning work best for different people. Some are hands on and learn more by doing and experimenting .... others learn visually ... others learn by being told how to do it and guided.

I suppose schools should have smaller classes so all can be given the best education possible.



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Phi_guy
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PostPosted: Thu 07 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I just had a new schooling idea. What if instead of focusing on the best education possible, they instead shortened classes and focused entirely on fundamental skills? Thus people leaving high school have a better grounding in reality. In addition, the school provides resources for students to pursue their other academic interests at their leisure. Since students are on their own initiative to educate themselves, they will be more enthusiastic about it and progress faster.

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Johnny Tambourine
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PostPosted: Thu 07 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Phi_guy wrote:
What exactly do you propose? Take History for example. The only way I can think of to apply that is to use it to analyze current events. The problem: people are never rational about current events. Emotions would run high, and it would be chaos. I really am interested in this topic and would appreciate your input.


Well, although it is important to learn about history and current events, there is no real use for learning about it other than just memorizing it and not being ignorant about the world. There is no real way in school to actually apply the things you learn because it would require too many field trips and school budgets wouldn't be able to afford it. You just simply go through too many subjects too fast to really spend time applying all of the knowlage. When you have a job, you are going to have a more specific field that you cover, rather than a broad range of subjects, so basically everything else you learned was almost a waste of time.

Oh, and about surgeons, I don't think I would trust somebody who has never operated on anyone else before

I went to a private middle school with pretty small classes, and you do actually learn much better because the teachers actually care about the students and go out of their way to make sure everybody understands the information, rather than just telling it and expecting everyone to listen.


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Phi_guy
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PostPosted: Thu 07 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Johnny Tambourine wrote:
I went to a private middle school with pretty small classes, and you do actually learn much better because the teachers actually care about the students and go out of their way to make sure everybody understands the information, rather than just telling it and expecting everyone to listen.

I don't think this has much to do with class size. I also went to a small, private middle school. The teachers just told us the information and expected us to know it. Here in my large high school, they are much more involved.

I think another thing that is seldom brought up is the real purpose of all the core classes. The only "practical" use, for example, the math classes between Geometry and Precalculus is to build up to Calculus. However, that's not the point. The point is to learn how to think logically. Same with History and English, just a different kind of thinking. People get so caught up in showing the practical aspects that they end up missing all the good stuff!


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