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LD and ND: a terminology analysis

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kek
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Tosxychor, I really like your idea, especially because the terms you suggest aren't neutral by any means - you made a point youself in the 1st post that they're supposed to make having CDs a much more "desirable" thing than just having "abnormal dreams" (subconciously, of couse).

I've read the whole topic, but excuse me if I'll not mention every single point. I'd just like to address a point that I found missing from the very 1st post: Bruno said conciousness is a better word because it implies degress, not just an on-off switch.

Tonight I dreamt of being alone in a party, I wanted some company and then I thought "heck, this is a dream, I'll just approach anyone and start a conversation". Believe me or not, it wasn't enought to get me truly lucid. So I think, the two terms (CD and NCD) aren't enough.

Tosxychor wrote:
IIRC, the ultimate goal of any dreamer here is to become Lucid during every night, if not at will


So, we can't change "lucid" in this sentece to "concious", because I was concious in my dream and it wasn't fun at all in comparison to true lucidity. As we can't change the meaning of LD to "100% conscious CD", I suppose we would need a new term: CD, NCD and maybe SCD (S for super) or ULD (ultra), etc... This way we could describe three theorical possibilities of concious dreaming:

NCD (0% conciousness)
CD (1-99% conciousness)
SCD (100% conciousness)

I guess I made my point. I'll leave the definition of the new term up to you guys, SCD and UCD aren't very good. But, Tosxychor, I really like your idea, and if anyone add this to the cool ld4all forum's dictionay (you, that automatic-underlined-mouse-over cool things), I'd try to use them. And if I'm writing this, surely there are several others who also would but who are keeping quiet.


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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

tukkek, I see your point, and I'm very glad to see my view was shared by some afterall (I guess I gotta thank mattias, Phoenyx, Spider and Leeh aswell ^^), and about the lucid-conscious comparison:

Lucidness have various dregrees, as many have percieved themselves, and the fact the lucid is used as a precise description, only for particular dreams, is mainly beacuse we forced the meaning to do so: we wanted a clear distintion about if a dream is lucid or not, and that's what we mostly got, with its side effects of course, like the one you mentioned (we know it's a dream somehow and we still can't call it lucid).

In this sense, if we accept the word "conscious" in the context as a synonim for "lucid", the I'm sure the words will be surely interchangeable, since this way "conscious" would be referring to a particular state of mind too. smile

Moreover, we still do classify various degrees of lucidity, calling them semi-lucid, low-lucid, high-lucid, and everything inbetween; in the same way, there would be nothing to invent all over if we apply the same principle to the term "consciousness".



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kek
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Tosxychor wrote:
tukkek, I see your point, and I'm very glad to see my view was shared by some afterall (I guess I gotta thank mattias, Phoenyx, Spider and Leeh aswell ^^), and about the lucid-conscious comparison:

Lucidness have various dregrees, as many have percieved themselves, and the fact the lucid is used as a precise description, only for particular dreams, is mainly beacuse we forced the meaning to do so: we wanted a clear distintion about if a dream is lucid or not, and that's what we mostly got, with its side effects of course, like the one you mentioned (we know it's a dream somehow and we still can't call it lucid).

In this sense, if we accept the word "conscious" in the context as a synonim for "lucid", the I'm sure the words will be surely interchangeable, since this way "conscious" would be referring to a particular state of mind too. smile

Moreover, we still do classify various degrees of lucidity, calling them semi-lucid, low-lucid, high-lucid, and everything inbetween; in the same way, there would be nothing to invent all over if we apply the same principle to the term "consciousness".
What I meant is that if we're gonna trade LD and ND for only CD and NCD, I'd rather stick to the first pair, because it gives us a higher standard to hope for (better to hope for a "true lucid" dream than to a mild-to-poor conscious dream as mine). What I liked most about your idea is how it can positevely subvert a begginer's mind. If we don't have a third term I think there's no much use in adopting new terminology, or that maybe it even does worse (subcounciously) an effect to the begginer as the actual common terms do.


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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

tukkek wrote:
What I meant is that if we're gonna trade LD and ND for only CD and NCD, I'd rather stick to the first pair, because it gives us a higher standard to hope for (better to hope for a "true lucid" dream than to a mild-to-poor conscious dream as mine).

I'm perfectly fine about that, what i wanted is for both terminologies to coexist smile
Besides, I didn't really understand the second part of ypur post. Could you please elaborate?



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Last edited by tosxyChor on Wed 25 Nov, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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WASD
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Sweden needs a new word for Lucid Dream. Right now its Klardr÷m, direct translation= Cleardream. I disliked it since the first time i heard it (the word, i love LD's smile).

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kek
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Tosxychor wrote:
tukkek wrote:
What I meant is that if we're gonna trade LD and ND for only CD and NCD, I'd rather stick to the first pair, because it gives us a higher standard to hope for (better to hope for a "true lucid" dream than to a mild-to-poor conscious dream as mine).

I'm perfectly fine about that, what i wanted is for both terminologies to coexist smile
Besides, I didn't really understand the second part of ypur post. Could you please elaborate?


Course! ^^
What I meant is that having only two terms (CD and NCD) is rather poor, 'cause a CD can be either a cool lucid dream or a mild-to-poor lucid dream (low lucidity, as my example on the 1st post on this thread). I suggest another term to specify a "high-lucidity" dream: SCD (super) or UCD (ultra). I'm bad with naming, maybe someone has a better idea for this 3rd name...


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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Well, the fact is, we had two terms before (LD and ND), and people thought of various levels, such as semi-lucid, low-lucid, high-lucid, etc., for describing their dreams a little better. What I'm suggesting is, we just let the CD and NCD terms follow the same road, to avoid confusion, and let things flow more naturally, letting people using CD in the same way that the term LD was.


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Sakoda
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

You mean, let those terms take the road of a folk saying, having them made more effective and memorable by telling and re-telling ?

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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

I was thinking more among the lines of ease-of-use
The usage of LD and ND has sedimented with years in various, accepted forms, and it would be a pain if those new terms had completely different rules to follow in order to be used; so I was thinking, let them be just simple synonyms: anytime you would use the term LD, you can use CD instead, since it has the same exact meaning (I effectively want them to mean the same thing here), and the same with ND and NCD.

And of course, ideas are more effective if they're wider spread, so I was just thinking of ways to make those new terms more easily accepted. smile



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krakatoa
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Ok, I haven't read all the way through. But I have a few thoughts. First and foremost, I think that you would have no trouble at all being understood if you use the terms Conscious dream and non-conscious dream, because they are already used. Second, you are not suggesting giving up old terms, and you would completely understand what people mean when they say normal dream, so, what are you trying to achieve, actually? If it is to start the use of CD and NCD, it's already been done a long time ago. Even before LD maybe. If it is not to stop the use of the old terms, what should be done with them? And if it is not to convince others to use your terms, then what is it? Seems a little funny to me.

I see your point, that saying ND compared to LD makes LDs seem more difficult. Psychologically, it might be better to say unlucid dreams or non-lucid dreams in order to not make such a fuss about lucidity as to inhibit them. I don't see the criticism against its accuracy though. ND are more common, and as such are the norm for most people. LDs are special. There are more features to dreams that can be expressed, such as vividness and lenght and such, but what is our interest really? If you strive for long dreams, you will call some long, and some short, and there will also be a range of regular length dreams. If you are only looking for long dreams, you'd call those NDs. The same goes with all aspects of dreams. If you are looking for zombie-dreams, you will have ZDs and NDs. If the dream has no specific interesting feature on display, why not call them NDs? You can't call a dream a long dream, just because it's not a lucid dream because it might be short(, or a normal lenght dream). So in the context of lucid dreaming, NDs is a proper term. You could choose to make it more neutral by saying, perhaps, Other Dreams, but it only works in plural. What you call it just depends on how much you want to say. You could call a dream a Long Vivid Random Strange Lucid False Awakening (Dream).

As for what to call LDs themselves. Choosing the right word depends partly on the euphony and cacophony of the terms, and also on what you are focusing on about the dream. To call a dream a Conscious Dream, highlights the state of consciousness, implied to be high. But consciousness does not guarantee that you know you are dreaming. Take Pre-Lucid Dreams for example, they are just as conscious as a Lucid Dream, only you have not yet aquired the necessary proof that you are dreaming. It would be understood from the context what you mean ofcourse, but I tend to make a difference between high consciousness and knowing that I'm dreaming. Usually they go hand in hand, but they are not the same IMO. And technically, we have a degree of consciousness in all dreams we remember, because you can't remember if you did not have consciousness. Every experience is conscious or it wouldn't be experienced. "Lucid Dreaming", highlights the clariry of thought you are expected to have, in order to realise you are dreaming. That is, to not be distracted by random thoughts. It should be possible though, to be aware that you are dreaming and still not have clarity of thought. But then, those are often called low level LDs. What you focus on is really a matter of what you think is important about the dream. The way you define the terms shows that. And if a different word fits your definition better, go for it!

My final words, might be the ultimate solution to the problem, even if it does not make it easier exactly, it does do away with the problem. The terms in themeselves, can have connotations that don't do the dream justice. And since people might have different definitions of the same term, misunderstandings can take place. The important thing is not whether your dreams with neatly into a specific category. To obsess about that, will take the fun out of your dreams. If you make it your goal to fulfill the requirements for calling the dream you just had a conscious dream, or lucid dream or whatever, you are forgetting the reason you wanted to hae the dream in the first place. It is not about categorisation and technicality, it is about having the experience. And if you want to do it justice, just describe it without putting a label on it! Does it make you any happier to be able to say: "Yes, this dream fulfils all the requirements, I can call it a lucid dream. I have accomplished my goal"? What about the dream itself? Did you enjoy it? If you did, do you care whether it can be called lucid or not? So why bother with labels at all? just say: "I was quite conscious in the dream, I realized I was dreaming, and I had loads of fun"!


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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

I highly suggest you take a read of the posts beside the first; most of your points have already been discussed.

About the last paragraph, I do agree with your view, and think dreams should enjoyed for themselves nonetheless, and I actively write down all significant dreams i can remember down to treasure them; however, I do find that IWL, i can appreciate way more any experience if i put awareness in it, participating consciously in it, without being simply dragged by the events and thoughts, but being the master of myself and trying to get the most out of any experience this way; I thought I could apply that principle in dreams aswell.

Besides,
krakatoa wrote:
Does it make you any happier to be able to say: "Yes, this dream fulfils all the requirements, I can call it a lucid dream. I have accomplished my goal"?

I'd say, yes, verily: for I have set an objective the day before, and I have accomplished it; and that means I'm a human being capable of getting what he wanted to reach; and that usually means I'm becoming a better, more balanced, more self-conscious person. Besides, I mostly use LD's for the same reason (self-growth)



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Phoenyx
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PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Quote:
You could call a dream a Long Vivid Random Strange Lucid False Awakening (Dream).


^^ I think this might actually be the best road to take for me, start with just plain "Dream" and if it's more, label it so

But part of the psychological aspect of labels and such seemed to hit me pretty good yesterday with the word "Reality".. I was looking at a bowl, that now looked like from my Mother's set of her favored dishes, instead of how it had looked a few minutes prior. As we were looking at it, and I was trying to explain how it Had looked, it changed even more. I exclaimed, "Hey! It's changing as if I'm in a Dream!" Great place to gain lucidity, one would think, but.. I continued something along the lines of "But I know I'm in Reality!" as I looked around the dining room, and touched the dining room table, all as 'Real' as could be...

I've been using IWL instead of IRL for awhile now, but just a quick anecdote of how a phrase or a word can impact our efforts.. (don't want to hijack the thread too far off base, but anyone know any used words for the 'dream reality' ?)


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kek
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Phoenyx wrote:
I've been using IWL instead of IRL for awhile now


That makes two of us turn3

Phoenyx wrote:
anyone know any used words for the 'dream reality' ?

Dreamland, the dreaming and astral plane come to mind right now.


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PostPosted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

i vote for calling them supra-uber-mega-IRL-dreams

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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Mon 30 Nov, 2009  Reply with quote

Phoenyx wrote:
I've been using IWL instead of IRL for awhile now

Yeah I got used to it too, since dreams are quite "the" reality for the time one spends dreaming.

And mopman, yeah, some dreams really deserve such a title lach1 but I don't quite get the IRL part.



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