I dont mean to speak for vampire, but I think he was using the frase about not beleiving in science loosley allso. Right Vamp…? Anyway I think I know what you mean. If you mean what I think you do your saying more that you have just as much right not believing in science in the same way that it should be understood by someone who dosnt beleive in magic. We beleive in magic like someone beleives in science, its hard for you to understand why someone cant beleive in science, and its hard for us to understand how people cant beleive in magic. Or I could be wrong.
Placebo? Watch me!
: 3 I’m such a party pooper. Not to say it can’t happen, but the placebo effect is rather miraculous itself.
Yeah I was using that phrase loosely. What I mean is that Science is still good for explaining certain things, and most of the time it tends to be right, but it will deliberately ignore things it cannot prove and it calls everyone who believes these things either over-imaginative or insane. Which is why I disbelieve and distrust science at times. It’s not as if I disbelieve all of it.
this thread is an illumination of the principle of conflicting, contrasting, and intersecting beliefs ,
if you have abilities , would you really want rampant skeptical people to follow you around with pen and paper in hand ?
if you want support and upliftment and connection to others who are similar , i would say to talk about it on a forum that is more spiritual in nature, rather than here
method to attain psychic powers as a byproduct of infinite bliss have been psoted here by me in the "yoga thread " , and are not kept secret ,
however, the amount of discipline it takes to attain the vibratory level of being one with the universe is quite high
it takes a soul saying, this breathing method sounds perfect, i am going to do it at least 2 hours a day , as instructed in the texts ,
when you are one with the vibratory spin of anything you direct your focus upon, you can move it,
BUT THE REAL POINT IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
Commendable yes, but unfortunately you are implying those that believe differently to you, or disbelieve all together are close minded. This needn’t be the case, since it assumes non-believers dismiss the claim without due thought. An assumption which is both dangerous and untrue. It fires up many people who base their belief systems off scientific method, because the fundamental requirement to that is that you conduct the experiment genuinely and without attempting to influence the result, that you be open minded to either result. It’s far from close minded of them to hold an opinion based off how they understand things to work. They’re perfectly open to having that view changed, just not in the same way you change yours.
I think kava has a valid point about looking at the world with a sense of awe and wonder. However, I do not believe you have to believe in magic, god or anything supernatural to do so. I don’t need to think about how a tree came to be, to appreciate its beauty, or admire how well the ecosystem works together to promote life, etc. In fact it grants me more freedom, I can sit in awe of our own accomplishments as a species, this computer I use right now never ceases to be amazing to me.
Does magic give you blood transfusions if you are involved in an accident? does magic allow the intense farming techniques used to support a massive population that would be unsustainable without them? Does magic deal with waste removal and processing? I’m not intending to attack your beliefs here, but what you just said was incredibly rude towards a mode of thought which has allowed you the time to think, formulate and hold the views you do. Without science, you’d spend your time fighting to live, not thinking about the meaning or worth of life. What you believe is your domain, but please, show a little respect and appreciation towards the wonderful achievements science has made. The same goes to you Kava. It doesn’t matter how ‘loosely’ you claim this statement is being made. The fact is it has been made.
The irony is, you criticise these people. What do you think they are trying to achieve? To debunk you? No, they’re trying to disprove OR prove the existence of such phenomena. You may not agree with their methods, but you can’t deny that they are genuine in their intentions; at least when they start out. Perhaps in time they become jaded after being called many irritating things by ‘believers’ (they are only human) or hearing the same things cited that they have exhaustively researched and found no proof of, but that’s a topic for another discussion.
As for my own views on this topic, I’m neutral. I’ve seen and experienced enough to make me curious. I wouldn’t say it was all coincidence, it happens too often in my opinion, however, there are a few explanations which are also valid. Such as our minds are great at sifting through information, and theorising and imagining what will happen, based on very tiny cues. These psychic premonitions, could be the result of intense processing on tiny cues we don’t see consciously. I’m still not sure though. Stuff like, everyone’s breathing sounds different, as do many of the mundane sounds we don’t consider, like coughing. (The sound of the cough, runs in the family from what I’ve seen.) This could go a long way to explaining ‘sensing a presence’ and such. It doesn’t take away any of the magic in it for me though, it just makes me more impressed with the capacities and capabilities of our minds.
Nice post, Greendragon.
It’s important not to characterise science as a force of making everything less wondrous and awe-inspiring. Looking at the world around us is even more awesome when you bear in mind how everything works.
I think that just looking at nature and thinking that it was made by God or magic or whatever, is, in mystifying nature, actually making it far less interesting. As you said Greendragon, a scientific thinker can appreciate a flower aesthetically but also on the microscopic level of how it all works to allow the flower to grow and live, and on the macroscopic level of how the plant’s life fits into the evolutionary chain or how it helps other species to live. The world is brought to life by science.
Hmmm no I was talking to Vamp to tell him that when he shares an experience he should be careful of the words he choose to describe what he experienced because others might think the words he used were too strong to describe what happened.
And also because, since he used the word “psychokynesics” to describe something that happens to a lot of other people, he appeared as someone naive.
Things like this happens a lot, even if sometimes people don’t notice it or don’t give it any credit, speaking of coincidence.
It’s like when you say something and your friend says the exact same words at the same moment, anyone has a different opinion on this.
The thing is, no use to use big words such as to say something that sounds like “oh my god what should I do I think I have superpowers ?”
So it’s just a choice of words. It’s like saying I’m an genius artist just because I know who to draw when others don’t. No use to use such big words. If you are curious, you should always be calm and patient, especially if you’re not on expert on the subject.
I mean of course strange supernatural things happen all the time. It all depend of what words you choose to describe it.
But saying a mouse is an elephant it a bit naive 
Ok I think I made my point lol Preaching is not my intent…
Imagine you’re in a situation where there is a 1 in a million chance that two things will happen coincidentally in the next minute. Now, there are about 6 billion people in the world, and so by the laws of chance that 1 in a million coincidence will happen to 6000 people every minute. Since there are 1440 minutes in a day, that means in a single day this 1 in a million coincidence will happen to 8,640,000 people.
That’s just for one specific conincidence. If you think about all of the thousands and thousands of possible coincidences that could occur, I don’t think it’s too unlikely that every so often a 1 in a million coincidence will happen to you.
I’ve tried to explain exactly what you’ve said to so many people over the years, but I’ve never been able to put it is succintly and convincingly as you just have. People love to think that there is something about them that makes them special and different to everyone else, but really coincidences are happening all the time, so the fact that it happens to you every now and again is of no significance.
hahaha Kava and Giospurs will now banish the expression “what were the odds ?” from english language 
Thanks
thank you kava and few others. this is why you respect your elders.
science vs magic… just another case of day trying to submit the night because the night won’t show its true colors. day originated from the same place as night, so although separated at birth, their the only two who can understand and quarrel with eachother.
the second you divide them from the original power is the second you step off the path of containing them both.
…think about it the next time your having sex, its give and take.
also Vamp, give it a few years your veiws should change and if not you might find yourself blind, the one thing you might feel invincible from right now.
Blind? I do believe that it is most people who are blind by following science. I believe life was better when scientists were considered heretics. Sure, you had to fight for life, but this was what gave life its meaning. If you don’t fight for your life, than what do you fight for? Science takes away the meaning in life. It makes everything cold and meaningless. It doesn’t make room for magic, and I proved to my self many times that magic does indeed exist. I was just explaining why I’m not blind at all, but rather one who sees things.
At any rate, let’s just bring this conversation back to the original topic after this.
Prove each of your statements here with a persuasive piece of evidence.
To be honest, I find it very hard to understand how somebody can romanticise the dark ages like this. A time when people were killed for trying to further knowledge and understanding or for deviating from the norm. Where sickness and plagues wiped countless thousands off the face of the earth and people thought it was a god taking his anger out on them, having no idea about hygiene, or that they were contaminating their own water supplies with excrement. A time where it was ok to treat others with disdain, simply because they were a different colour to you. Where you could be hung if you were accused of being a witch, which is kinda ironic when you are using the term magic.
To be fair it never deviated from the original topic. You posted your experiences and interpretation of them, others are simply doing the same thing. To label what they say as off-topic, simply because you don’t agree with it, is a disingenuous attempt at censorship. You can’t share your beliefs, and insist others don’t share theirs.
I can see you are a rational type, and I respect that. The ensuing back and forth that will occur from this is not going to be productive though. You say, prove what you say with evidence. After some time and inevitably frayed and heated discussion, somebody says, why does the universe have to be logical, what proof do you have that there can be irrefutable evidence for everything. Certainly you have a valid reason to adopt that mindset, scientific method has progressed us very far indeed, it’s very rational to believe it will continue to do so; and that it can be applied productively to all things. That however is still a personal outlook on the world around you.
I never thought about it, but I was being a hypocrite by saying people who dont beleive in magic are close minded, when I myself was being close minded. Wow thanks for pointing that out to me. I really would, and need to learn that everyone cant think like me, and its usualy a waste of time to try to convince others to do so. I dont think I will ever learn this life lesson. I want to be totaly open minded even to those that I preceve as being close minded.
i hear you kava, theres always that greater understanding infinite levels up and down.
and vamp, you need to expand your consciousness because in this marathon of life, your only 14 boy… learn what it means to grow then take an adult sized look at your current headspace. im young to but i respect my elders and ALL formations of the earth for the knowledge and wonder in each.
knowledge, wonder - science, magic.
you and i and all under the sky will forever be blind untill the day that we die 
Sorry about making such a big mess of this topic. I don’t know what got into me, but I felt like arguing over that trivial thing. (I kinda had a bad day) And, since I don’t like losing arguments, things escalated a little out of control. Ok, maybe way out of control. I kept using really illogical statements. I still do believe in precognitive experiences though. That won’t change. But, to be honest, I trust science. Like I said, things got way out of control.
princeton.edu/~pear/human_machine.html
A place where science and magic come together!! 
(Ok… they don’t actually say that… but if you want a more scientific ‘not too fluffy’ look at the kind of experiences this topic is talking about AND also to illustrate, yet again, that science (or more precisely, the scientific method) is not as closed minded as a lot of people on this forum make it out to be. (this LUCID DREAMING forum could potentially not exist if not for the scientific work of Laberge opening up the techniques and experience to a much larger audience other than those esoteric few).
As for myself, I like to experience events such as conincidences and let the mind play with the possiblities that it can imply, and even sometimes, the string of events that lead from those conincidences afterwards. But to give it meaning? I don’t know? To think I know what it all means would be pretty arrogant.
Science is as (if not more) imaginative than magic. I find myself in awe just conceptualising how the earth came to be, from one event to another to another.
Thanks, I think this was the stuff that I was looking for earlier. Did anyone check out the other links I posted in my earlier comment?