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Posts: 1074
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Last Visit: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Croatia
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 Posted: Tue 04 May, 2010 |
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Yeah, murder for many people is bad just because the consequences are great.
That makes me sad.
Also, thanks for the first part...I didn't know that 
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25 |
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 05 May 2010
LD count: Many
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue 04 May, 2010 |
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@ Antares:
You are right about that. It makes me wonder just how much people value life at all. In the end, life's all anybody really has right? 
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Posts: 1074
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Last Visit: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Wed 05 May, 2010 |
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Well, it depends on beliefs so I don't want to go there.
But I wonder how many people would kill others if killing was allowed... 
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25 |
Posts: 14
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 05 May 2010
LD count: Many
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed 05 May, 2010 |
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I think it would stay about the same. Most of the people posting on this thread talk about killing out of curiosity. I don't think that the number of people who feel the need to murder would change, since they kill whether there are consequences or not. I don't think consequences prevent murder... its just a neat system of dealing with murderers after the fact. 
Any thoughts on that?
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Posts: 74
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Last Visit: 30 Apr 2013
LD count: quite some
Location: NRW, Germany
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| Posted: Wed 05 May, 2010 |
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That´s a problem.
I can´t imagine any system of consequences that is fair AND prevents from murders or similar things.
The only solution I see is to increase education, general enlightment and thus also compassion of the people.
This seems to be the only REAL way, but (who wonders) it seems to be by far not the easiest 
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Posts: 1074
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Last Visit: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Thu 06 May, 2010 |
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Well, I certainly wouldn't kill anyone, nor you...
But many people actually would if you think about it.
Many people don't kill because it's labeled as a crime or because there are consequences.
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Posts: 8
Joined: 06 May 2010
Last Visit: 25 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu 06 May, 2010 |
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Though I have yet to be in a situation to live/dream it, my simple moral would be do no harm to life. This is a personal choice, however. You want to be an absolute monster in your LDs? Go ahead. In the end, all a LD is is just a bunch of electric waves in your brain.
Still says something bad about ones character, though.
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Posts: 1372
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Last Visit: 09 Jan 2013
Location: Luleå, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue 11 May, 2010 |
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Having studies ethics, I feel an urge to participate in the discussion. Studying ethics my pre-existing belief that there are no objective values have been thoroughly fortified. The obvious consequence of that belief is that morality in dreams is equally vacuous as in waking life. The only thing we have to discuss is what we as individuals feel is right or wrong. There is no moral system that is better than any other, because in order to make the decision, we have to make value judgements. We cannot support value judgements without appealing to other value judgements to prove that the one in question is good and ought to be accepted. A foundation is necessary, but there is no way to prove that a suggested foundation is good. Unless we are prepared to be intellectually dishonest and simply run with a preferred foundation or set of principles without substantiating it, we have nothing to work with.
Since this is general ethics it may appear to be off topic, but surely it is central to the matter. If we are to judge a person's actions in a dream, we need to qualify our judgement.
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Posts: 41
Joined: 03 May 2010
Last Visit: 12 Aug 2010
LD count: yay 1st LD!!!
Location: Italy<3
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| Posted: Tue 11 May, 2010 |
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ok I want to join this topic, this is really interesting 
I have to admit I still never had LD but from what I read I get that there is a difference between behaving with a DC in a ND and a LD because is sort of behaving with a person in real life.
We must start with a condition: the dream is something strictly related to us, that happens only in hour mind and is completely an illusion? Because if we believe that DC could be other dreamers or that they exist somewhere or anything like that the whole thing is completely different. (see --> SD)
Let's consider the first case: dreams are imagination. In this case doing something bad to a DC wouldn't theorically be wrong, because we are not really hurting anyone. For the case of ND, we could put it like a videogame: you kill hundreds of enemies but nobody will come at you and say that you are a psichopatic serial killer. I believe that for LD, the thing is a bit different; in a ND things just "happen" and it could happen as well that you kill/offend/hurt someone, but in a LD you don't "have to" you just do it if you want. So this means that when you misbehave in a lucid dream you actually do it on purpose. We could answer again that DC are not real so there is no problem on hurting them because they don't really feel anything, it is just our SC. But, to try to quote the dear S. Freud from his book Dream Interpretation (reccomended  ), if when someone ask us if we would do something that we don't like we answer "neither in a dream", it means that what we actually do in a dream matters in our daily life and affects our morality. Same thing when we tell a dream we had to someone; most of the times we don't properly say the whole story but make some minor changes and don't say at all some parts because we think it's better not to tell that person those things. If we actually tought that what happens in dreams is not related at all to what we do in our daily life we could tell someone our dreams without any fear; and this is much more important in a LD as we are conscious. In conclusion, I'm not going to give an answer because I'm not able to, what I think is that maybe morality should be applied to dreams too mostly while talking about LD because if someone hurts on purpose a DC only because he wants to means that he likes to; anyway I just wanted to give you some points to reflect by yourself hope I wasn't boring and that my English wasn't too bad 
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Posts: 1372
Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Last Visit: 09 Jan 2013
Location: Luleå, Sweden
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| Posted: Mon 17 May, 2010 |
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Asura16, it is an interesting point you make about one not wanting to tell others what one has done in a lucid dream. If it was not immoral, then why not? Well, perhaps it is embarassing. Still, some things you might not want to tell about because people do understand that what we do in dreams, to an extent, reflects what we want to do IRL. Freud exaggerated this wish fulfilment aspect of dreams to the extent that he considered nightmares to represent subconscious masochistic tendencies. However, when it comes to lucid dreams our choices are concious and thus they can be seen, at least by others, as indications of certain wishes. We do in lucid dreams things we are not able to do in waking life. So, the judgement we wish to avoid by not sharing things we do in lucid dreams, is that of having those wishes. Wishes transcend the boundry of sleep and waking, and if they exist in the dream they exist in waking life. It is a question of character and not actions. It is not that what one did is a bad thing, it is that one is at all interested in such a thing. In the end I think that one only avoids sharing if one expects the listener to react negatively. For example, a person might not be comfortable with publicly discussing a lucid dream in which he enjoyed being a nazi, but among nazis he would feel quite comfortable.
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Posts: 66
Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 07 Aug 2012
LD count: 10+ :D
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon 17 May, 2010 |
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I think in an LD, it is sadistic to torture someone deliberately, just to feel powerful, but if you are having fun with swords, lightsabres, mock duels, then it is fine
Current LD goal(s): Choosing who I dream about ^^'
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Posts: 672
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 18 May 2013
LD count: 23
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue 18 May, 2010 |
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| Lord Antares wrote: |
Well, it depends on beliefs so I don't want to go there.
But I wonder how many people would kill others if killing was allowed... |
If killing was allowed you would still hesitate because you know you would be absolutely despised by that person's family.
It's not illegal to look extremely mad all day, but we still prefer not to do it because we know it makes a bad impression on most people.
Personally I think the only thing LDs say about your character is that you enjoy doing bad stuff as long as it isn't real.
And I'm a believer in that even if a wise person obtains power, (s)he would still do his/her best to use it properly.
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Posts: 1074
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Last Visit: 26 Jan 2013
Location: Croatia
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| Posted: Tue 18 May, 2010 |
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I wouldn't kill...ever.
But many people would and they don't care about other peoples' families.
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Posts: 2
Joined: 22 May 2010
Last Visit: 23 May 2010
Location: Maribor, Slovenia
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| Posted: Sat 22 May, 2010 |
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I'll have to stick with "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
I had a LD that night in which i was having sex with my friends.
It started with my daily routine, but when i made a reality check with my watch i became aware it was just a dream, so i just went to a bar and on the way there i deliberatly made calls so that my hot friends would be there, because i thought that if i dream i can do everything i want.Since i was aware of the dream i just somehow made the DC's (that looked like my friends) have sex with me by only thinking what would happen inside my head. When i woke up I realised how immoral and wrong that was and had guilt over the events in the dream, because IRL i would never take advantage of anybody.
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Posts: 672
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Last Visit: 18 May 2013
LD count: 23
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun 15 Jan, 2012 |
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I'm a very kind and sympathetic person in real life, but I still think I could do totally random things in my lucid dreams - because hey, after all they're not real, you can do absolutely anything you want in lucid dreams with no limitations whatsoever and it still won't hurt anyone.
It's quite different to have power in real life, after all, where you have to respect other human beings as well. 
Although I do think I could feel a little bad if I severely mistreated a DC.
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