The DreamMaker
LD4all » Quest for Lucidity

#1: The DreamMaker Author: r3m0t PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005
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Demand (apparently) was high after the novadreamer was discontinued. Now somebody has worked with the Lucidity Institute to create a new novadreamer.

The novadreamer detected REM and flashed lights. You would have conditioned yourself to recognise those lights as a signal that you were dreaming. Therefore, you would notice the lights and get lucid!

OK, to get to the part which most people find important:

DreamMaker: $200 each for first 100, then $349

DreamMaker Pro: $500 each for first 100, then $1000

EWLD is included as well as documentation for the DreamMaker.

Apparently the DreamMaker can move you to an Alpha state and then turn on the REM detection. The old novadreamer essentially detected the actual eye movement. The dreammaker also measures facial tension and uses both of these factors to detece REM.

Also, it can play a tape when it detects REM. This might be a useful reminder of what you want to do, or it can help you compare dream time to real time, or it can be used like self-hypnosis (but probably to less effect).

The site isn't very clear about why the Pro version is so much better. It has a Light and Sound machine, whatever that is.

I found it through the bottom ads.

<mod>direct link removed, please don't link to product vendors</mod>


Last edited by r3m0t on Sat 01 Jan, 2005; edited 1 time in total

#2:  Author: Sureal PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005
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Yeah, I saw this too. I probably won't but one, simply because I don't wanna spend all that money on one...

I wish it had gone into more detail about the pro version though. It costs more than double the other one, but it doesn't seem to do anything different (the usual one makes light and sound as well, right?).

#3:  Author: Technodreamer PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005
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R3m0t, please use this link:

[Q edit: edited link out -- please don't link to the ads like that]

The link is better because it helps ld4all smile

I wouldn't buy one. That is far too expensive! It is faster, easier and cheaper just to do LD without such a device.

#4:  Author: WhiteWolf PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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omg 1000 dollars! *does an RC* I rather just learn my dreamsigns hehe

#5:  Author: Nic PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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WhiteWolf wrote:
omg 1000 dollars! *does an RC* I rather just learn my dreamsigns hehe



seriously.... are they nuts for asking so much for these? I mean come on.... that is insane.
Noway would I buy one. that is robbery.

#6:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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Still ridiculously priced. I say we should boycott them to force a lower price.

#7:  Author: BenDrummin58 PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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I would really really want one of these...but jesus christ!! 1000 dollars just to spice your dreams up! I'm desperate sometimes...but not even close to being that desperate.

#8:  Author: WhiteWolf PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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for that much money...I could build me a pretty nice dual CPU Motherboard, 400mhz 2 gig ram, geforce 6600 GT, two 200gig RAIDed harddrives. and still have roughly 100 bucks to spare.
yeesh id have the best computer within a 50 mile radius

#9:  Author: BenDrummin58 PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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Tell that to the Lucidity Inst. smile

#10:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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bendrummin58 wrote:
Tell that to the Lucidity Inst. smile


I don’t think it is the lucidity inst that is producing the dream maker.

#11:  Author: WhiteWolf PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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milod789 wrote:
I don’t think it is the lucidity inst that is producing the dream maker.


Well whoever makes it needs to find a better price, I rather rap christmas lights around my head and have them set to a timer so they start flashing when I enter REM

#12:  Author: R3TRO PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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lol niiiice white wolf!


Actually that may work smile As long as you dont die by electricution first.

#13:  Author: Sureal PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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Yeah, that would be an unfortunate side ffect...

#14:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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WhiteWolf wrote:
milod789 wrote:
I don’t think it is the lucidity inst that is producing the dream maker.


Well whoever makes it needs to find a better price, I rather rap christmas lights around my head and have them set to a timer so they start flashing when I enter REM


An easier way would be to hook up a strobe light to a timer and set it to flash at times you are likely to be in rem sleep. Depending on where you go, you could buy everything you need for less the $30.00. I tried this a long time ago and it did work for me.

#15:  Author: WhiteWolf PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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see another cheaper alternitive. and safer then mine! lol.
Im only afraid that if i use somthing like that i would become dependent on it. And only LD IF I use that overspannen so id rather like I said learn Dreamsigns, or learn WILD better..

#16:  Author: Kava PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005
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Hey yae, I found a alarm clock C.D. player the other day, and it plays a C.D. at what ever time you set it. Im thinking of getting one. How did you hook the strobe light up to a timer?

#17:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2005
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WhiteWolf wrote:
see another cheaper alternitive. and safer then mine! lol.
Im only afraid that if i use somthing like that i would become dependent on it. And only LD IF I use that overspannen so id rather like I said learn Dreamsigns, or learn WILD better..


I completely agree. You do not want to become too dependent on a device for you lucid dreams. However, it may help some people who are just getting started or trying to overcome a dry spell. Once you get the feel of lucid dreaming then you wont need the device anymore.

kavaa wrote:
How did you hook the strobe light up to a timer?


The timer plugs into the wall then you plug the strobe light into the timer. You turn the power to the strobe light on. On the front of the timer there are little switches where you can set it to turn the strobe on. You can set it to go on a specific times or every 15 min, every few hours etc. You will understand when you see the timer. You can buy them in almost any k-mart or wall-mart type stores very cheap.

#18:  Author: r3m0t PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005
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Please, everybody, stop saying $1000! It isn't!

It's $350, or $200 if you order soon.

#19:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005
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r3m0t wrote:
Please, everybody, stop saying $1000! It isn't!

It's $350, or $200 if you order soon.


The site wrote:
The DreamMaker will retail at $349.00. If you pre-order now you will get it for only $200.00

The DreamMaker Pro will retail for $999.95. If you pre-order now you will get it for only $499.00


Still $200.00 is still a ridiculous price. They want you to send them $200.00 yet, they are vague as to who is developing this thing. They don’t even have a picture of it on there web site so you have no idea of what you are buying!

#20:  Author: r3m0t PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005
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It isn't that hard to see that "Wellness Tools" (company) have made these.

The extra price for the "Pro" version is for the light and sound machine:

Quote:
A Light/Sound Machine is a device that synchronizes a set of sequencing lights and different frequencies of sound. It was developed as an aid for learning, relaxation, consciousness expansion and entertainment. Pulsating lights and/or sound patterns have been used for centuries to excite people, calm people, assist in meditation and sleep, and entertain people.


This is not necessary for lucid dream induction. It is just an optional extra.

#21:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan, 2005
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Quote:
This is not necessary for lucid dream induction. It is just an optional extra.


Well you don’t need a device at all to induce lucid dreams. wink5

However, I do stand corrected. It does appear that wellness tools is the company that is producing the device. But, it is still suspicious that the do not have a picture of the device on their site.

Also note that the reduced price is only for the first 100 orders.

Anyway, I am just concerned that wellness tools is going to do the same thing the lucidity inst did. Control the production and keep the price high. thumbs down

#22:  Author: honeyjigga PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan, 2005
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Well the Dreammaker website has finally been updated but only with the CNN video of lucid dreaming that wellness tools was promising us.

The video does not talk anything about the Dreammaker which makes me not want to order this, until i see some actual pictures and info on this product.

I had emailed wellness tools a while ago with some questions and they got back to me, the Dreammaker does not have a cable that can be plugged to your PC like the Supernova dreamer had, only the Pro version has that.

So you guys your paying 200 dollars for the first 100 orders and there after 350 dollars, or you can order the rem dreamer from poland which has gone down in price now at 132 euros including shipping, which has had probably a new revision and they work better now, and the remdreamer cannot be connected to a PC but it does has a rem detector.

The dreammaker pro also has a built in light and sound machine which is said to better than all the light and sound machines currently on the market and it can plug to a PC with a upgrade kit probably another rip off of 150 dollars, already i think this pricing stradegy is not good for wellness tools, when to make these deivces they don't cost more than 80 dollars when your mass producing them.

They also said the pro version will have blue tooth enabled for another future expansion costly costly costly, that will allow you to stream the light and sound machine to the mask through bluetooth. Well that's all the email said. i emailed them back and asked for a FAQ section to be made on their website, he said that's a good idea, and would post all my questios and answers from the emails onto his website, but it seems he never bothered to wirte it up or is still working on it which has been over 10 days now.

#23: Nova Dreamer and Dream Maker Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2005
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WhiteWolf wrote:
milod789 wrote:
I don’t think it is the lucidity inst that is producing the dream maker.


Well whoever makes it needs to find a better price, I rather rap christmas lights around my head and have them set to a timer so they start flashing when I enter REM


The distributor (Nova Dreamer) is the Lucid Dream Connection for $700 Bucks..Yikes! whatsthat


I pre-ordered the DreamMaker Basic for $200, it doesnt have the mind machine but I plant to get Luna for that, so the mask with cues and lights is all you need. Better to pay $200 than $349 or freaking $1000 for the full-blown deal. 8D

#24:  Author: lucidboy PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2005
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A better way will be make a deal with your dog so when you enter REM he will pee in your face so you can become wet lucid. neutral

#25:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2005
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It would be interesting to find out if the dreamer maker is in any way superior to the rem dreamer which you can get for a lot less.

#26:  Author: honeyjigga PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005
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well we already know it is superior than the rem dreamer

the novadreamer and the rem dreamer only have a remdetector which works by detecting REM via a sensor which bounces light off the eyelid and then filters out noise or rapid movements.

but the dreammaker does that aswell as this i have copied and pasted this from there website: Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.

So the dreamamker has that second method which shows that the novadreamer and rem dreamer don't have,

Now one problem the Nova dreamer could be upgraded into a supernova dreamer, now the supernova was where you could connect the nova dreamer into a pc and record all your dream cues when they went off during the night.
Now the remdreamer and novadreamer does not have those features but the dreammaker pro version has a socket which will have that option in the future which is what i am told from an email that i wrote to wellness tools. Also it has a light and sound machine which is basically a control box that connects to a socket on the dreammaker and i think thats the same socket which will allow you to connect it to a pc with a future upgrade kit.

It's a bit stupid that they did not combine this option with the dreammaker basic.

So recap

Nova dreamer, one sort of rem detector but can be upgraded to supernova dreamer but discontinued.
rem dreamer same as above one sort of rem detector cannot be upgraded
dreammaker basic 2 sorts of rem detection cannot be upgraded
dream maker pro 2 sorts of remdetector, light and sound machine can be upgraded but it will cost something probably over 100 dollars i think.

Is it worth it, i don't think so, if they can drop the price of the pro version to 350 dollars or include the upgrade kit with the pro version for 500 dollars then great deal, if not thumbs down for this company.

they want to charge a 1000 dollars for the pro version after the first 100 sales, rip off and 500 dollars before.

the basic version was 200 dollars before the 100 sales, but sales has finish and it is selling for it's retail price now of 350 dollars, again rip off it should be 200 dollars because it cannot be upgraded.

#27:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005
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honeyjigga wrote:
well we already know it is superior than the rem dreamer


Do we really know it is superior to the rem-dreamer? IMO I don’t think so.

First we have no idea if the dream maker produces better results then the rem dreamer or the nova dreamer for that matter.

Just because it has 2 methods of detecting rem might make it better but, not necessarily superior. If they both produce the same results then neither is superior to the other regardless of how many ways of detecting the rem state it has.

We don’t even know what this thing looks like. Is it comfortable to wear at bed time. It could be the best LD induction device in the world but, if you can’t keep it on your head when you are asleep it’s useless.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the matter.

#28:  Author: honeyjigga PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005
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yeah sorry about that perhaps it's not more superior but just has more features. We just have to see what it turns out to be from future tests from Lucid Dreamers.

#29:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005
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honeyjigga wrote:
yeah sorry about that perhaps it's not more superior but just has more features. We just have to see what it turns out to be from future tests from Lucid Dreamers.


That is really the problem is there is not a lot of feed back from people. So far noone has posted any results with the rem dreamer which I think is about $120.00 and still over priced as far as I am concerned.

I think they are all a rip off. I am not saying that they do not work they are just outrageously priced. They control the production so they can keep the prices high.

You could get the same effects with a strobe light and timer. You could likely make your own light and sound machines for a 1/4 of what some of these places charge. It just takes some creativity. I knew some one who could not a afford a light machine so he bought some sort of laser light show thing for like $50.00 and used that with his meditation. That and a CD he had his own light and sound machine.

#30: Re: Nova Dreamer and Dream Maker Author: orion12 PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb, 2005
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phoenelai wrote:

I pre-ordered the DreamMaker Basic for $200, it doesnt have the mind machine but I plant to get Luna for that, so the mask with cues and lights is all you need. Better to pay $200 than $349 or freaking $1000 for the full-blown deal. 8D

phoenelai,

Did you ever get your DreamMaker?

I ordered one from Wellness Tools
on 01/03/05. Wellness Tools CEO Bruce Gelerter took my order and charged my credit card the same day for $210. He assured me the merchandise would ship on 01/10/05.
But I never received it. He would not return my phone calls, emails, and certified letter.

Finally when I contacted store-abuse@yahoo-inc.com, he wrote that he had issued me a credit. But he hadn't! It was a lie, to get him off he hook with Yahoo.

I looked around on the Net and found out a few things about Mr. Gelerter, a.k.a. "Wellness Tools" and "Electro-Medical Research, LLC.":

* Wellness Tools has a rating of UNSATISFACTORY with the Better Business Bureau of Southern Colorado.

* I found three other customers who also ordered merchandise from Wellness Tools and never received it after payment. Two of them area at http://www.badbusinessbureau.com , search for "Gelerter". The third is at http://p067.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm35.showMessage?t opicID=56.topic

* All three describe Gelerter as a "rip-off artist". That has also been my experience.

* Gelerter was sued in 1998 by the Dept. of Banking and Finance, Division of Financial Investigations of the State of Florida.

* He filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003.

* He has been posting to numerous bulletin boards including support groups for dibetics with sale pitches such as this one:
Quote:

We have an electronic device that so far has prevented amputations and gets rid of swelling and open sores in as little as one to two weeks.

Not only is this a false or unverified medical claim, but it is spam that violates the no commercial notices policy of those bullentin boards.

I hope you are able to recover your money. If you paid by credit card, you should write the credit card company (at the address for billing errors on your statement) requesting a chargeback.

You may wish to file complaints with the Internet Fraud Complaint Center, FTC, FDA, Colorado Attorney General's Office, Yahoo Stores, and your local law enforcement.

Places to complain in order to let other consumers know are
http://www.fraudbureau.com,
http://www.quackwatch.com and the commercial site http://www.baddbusinessbureau.com.

Good luck!

#31:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005
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ouch sadblauw

#32: mail from wellnesstols - is this really a fraud ? Author: nickstje PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005
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Hi Nick,
Relax, everything is OK. We are first shipping the DreamMakers this coming Wednesday we had delays in manufacturing, but we are ready to roll now.
Thanks,
Bruce Gelerter - CEO

-----Original Message-----
From: nick [mailto:myemailadres]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 4:18 AM
To: sales@wellnesstools.com
Subject: question about an order


HI, at 22/01 I ordered a dreammaker (order number 24985), I payed trough paypall and the money already came on my visa card, but I still haven't received it yet ...


any suggestions, ideas ? I tried to track the product, but I don't seem to have an account ...

[my information censored]

#33:  Author: mrvanhalen PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005
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a long time ago someone posted about a similar device you can build for a few dollars, with normal sunglasses and little green and red blinker lights
does anyone have info on this now i was thinking of trying her out

#34:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005
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mrvanhalen wrote:
a long time ago someone posted about a similar device you can build for a few dollars, with normal sunglasses and little green and red blinker lights
does anyone have info on this now i was thinking of trying her out


Well there are a few threads about building your own goggles. But I think the one you are talking about is here.
I have said this many times before but, Just hook up a strobe light to a timer. You can get the same effect for a lot less money. You don’t get rem detection so you have to do some guessing but, it’s better than getting ripped off, spending a small fortune or investing a great deal of time building your own goggles.

Finally, any light sound machine is not going to automatically give you lucid dreams. You still have to train yourself to recognize the cues the devise gives. Some of those ques are not all that obvious.

orion12

I have been suspicious about this device for some time. Thanks for the links. I had no idea that wellness tools had such a bad rep. I hope you can get your money back. You might also want to complain to your local attorney general also (since they ship them by mail) the US Postal Service might be willing to investigate. Complain to anyone who will listen to you.

#35: Wellness Tools / Bruce Gelerter Author: orion12 PostPosted: Sun 06 Feb, 2005
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milod789 wrote:

orion12

I have been suspicious about this device for some time. Thanks for the links. I had no idea that wellness tools had such a bad rep. I hope you can get your money back. You might also want to complain to your local attorney general also (since they ship them by mail) the US Postal Service might be willing to investigate. Complain to anyone who will listen to you.


Thanks, milod789. Sounds like good ideas.

The Wellness Tools FAQ says that they only ship by UPS because the mail is "to unpredictable at times" (to avoid the jurisdiction of the Postal Inspector, no doubt). Do you have any information that they have shipped something by US Mail?

In any case, they are engaging in interstate commerce, which puts them under federal jurisdiction. Guess the Feds are too busy chasing terrorists to worry about one small-time con man.

Maybe I'm naive, but I really didn't know that people like Bruce Gelerter existed, and were able to function right out in the open. He's a totally shameless liar and will say anthing. He tells people what they want to hear and knows exactly how to play the system. Every few years he moves to a different state and starts a new "business".

If anybody has doubts, just Google for his name and see what pops up.

I just looked at the web site, and thought it looked legit. It should have been a tip off that he wouldn't ship by mail, that the "order tracking link" on his website does not exist, and that his phone number wouldn't accept a call with caller ID blocked.

Also, I think Stephen LaBerge holds at least one patent on the Novadreamer, which the "Dream Maker" as described on the website would probably infringe.

BTW, no one has ever seen even a picture of the "DreamMaker". If it exists, why dosen't Gelerter put a picture of it on his web site?

What really gets me are the spam posts he make to diabetes support groups--they are really apalling. Nothing worse than a quack who sells worthless medical device to sick people.

Nick,

Ask Gelerter to explain why Wellness Tools has a rating of "UNSATISFACTORY" from the Southern Colorado Better Business Bureau (http://www.coloradosprings.bbb.org click on "Company Reports" and type in "Wellness Tools").

It's a safe bet that for every person who complained to the BBB, there must be five who just said "ah, screw it!" and did a chargeback.

BTW, remember that you only have 60 days from the first statement on which the charge appears to do a chargeback for a "billing error".
After that, you're only remedy will be to sue and then try to collect a judgement from Gelerter (who filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003).

#36:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 06 Feb, 2005
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here is a working link to the BBB report on wellness tools. For some reason yours did not work.

Also it is worth a shot to complain to the news media like: shame on you or help me Howard. Write to reporters who investigate consumer fraud cases.

#37:  Author: nickstje PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb, 2005
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thanks, I'll mail him this afternoon !

(btw, I payed through paypall, but how should I ask a chargeback ? shutup)

#38: Dream Maker Update ? Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005
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Orion 12, I did get my Dream Maker.

After some very un-successful testing it's for sale on Ebay. IMO, facial tension shouldnt be the only matter for detecting REM. I was actually having a lucid on my own wearing the thing, and I had set the brightness to the highest level and audio alarm and there were no triggers. I tested with new batteries as well. If you put the mask on and switch "4" to ON. You should be able keep your eyes close and move them from left to right and it should trigger. Only eye fluttering (where the eye actually opens) it appears to trigger. I don't want to knock the product, it may work for others just fine. If someone has better results they should post here; this is all my personal opinion!

I dont know much about Bruce. He did answer the phone most times when I called and delivered around the time he said he would, so I felt he was honsest.

My 2 Cents
help!

#39:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Mon 21 Mar, 2005
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Please do not confuse Wellnesstools.com and Toolsforwellness.com they are completely different. Toolsforwellness.com doesnt have any negative ratings!

Thanks!
phoen+

#40: Dream Maker - Phoen's Personal Review Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2005
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Well, I dont want to BASH the product, but in my period of testing, I didnt feel that REM was getting detected. The ad says it added Facial Movments (i.e twitching) and REM detection. I turned of switch 4 (this removes the 40min delay) and put the mask on. I kept my eyes close then moved them around and around back and forth and no queue. However, it will pick up "Eye Fluttering", (open and closing of the eyes very fast). I was actually having a lucid on my own (wearing the mask) and in the dream I saw nothing (no cues that would possibly be lights, and NO sound (I turned on the alarm). All this is in my testing and my opinion and -- I am interested in hearing other reviews.

From the AD:
So what we did was to add another way to detect REM. It turns out that Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.


In short, I dont think facial twitching alone will let you know your dreaming. And why did he put ONE sensor when you have TWO eyes? That doesnt make sense either. I ended up selling it because it didnt meet my satisfaction.

Bummer!
cry


Last edited by phoenelai on Wed 30 Mar, 2005; edited 2 times in total

#41:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2005
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It didnt detect REM sleep at all during the night?

How many times did you try it?

#42:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2005
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About 5 nights I think. Which wasnt long, and other users could have better results.

#43:  Author: Johan PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2005
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Are you sure it didn't give any cues? Is it possible to see the amount of cues it has sent after you wake up? I don't know anything about Dream Maker, but in my experience NovaDreamer detects REM well, and gives cues, but I only know that because it remembers the amount of cues and you can look it up in the morning. And there have been a lot of cues but I just didn't notice it in my dreams. Lucidity Institute explicitely says one must train himself to recognize the cues, because they often appear in your dreams in a very distorted form. I guess this is also true for Dream Maker. I hope the company that sells Dream Maker warn about this in the manuals etc? BTW I don't really get what they gain by adding measuring facial tension, the existing method of detecting REM as used by NovaDreamer works well in my experience.

#44:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2005
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Well I could have tested this longer, but the thing that did it for me was I also set the Alarm to trigger as well. I was having a lucid and was looking for the lights in someway shape or form but nothing. I wasnt hearing any alarm either. I woke up instantly and the mask was quiet as a whistle. I think he should have used the like the Nova Dreamer. I dont think the facial tension is a good way of measuring either.

eek2

#45:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2005
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electromyography doesn't necessarily mean face twitching... the medical tests involve pinning needles into the muscle and observing the electricity INSIDE the muscle... i don't think you'd have needles stuck in your face as you seep, so don't trust this extra feature of the mask... i might be a non-believer, but it looks to me like big words for nothing... you may have electrodes on the face, but those would measure electricity across the skin, so it's not EMG... it's electrodermal (which is different, but may also work) or you may have some sort of "flexibility" measuring device that measures how much the mask moves during sleep, but this is useless since the mask could move for other reasons than muscle activity... yeah, i don't see how you could have this on a mask, it doesn't make much sense. So unless it's electrodermal then I don't think the mask has the extra feature... and if it IS electrodermal, i'd be worried... how can someone produce a mask that claims to use a medical monitoring method and not know how it works or even the right terminology...

as for the eye movement, it would seem the sensor isn't properly aligned to your eye... you can probably try to play around with the intensity of IR (if you have the option) but other than that there's not much you can do (unless you start moving the sensors around). this is what happened with my Kvasar, it picked up eye fluttering very well (even the number of flutters) but not eye movement... you can try playing with the way you put the mask on, but other than that there's not much you can do...

i'm sorry about the negativity in the post, but i really REALLY don't trust that guy... there's no pictures, no mentioning of the product on the lucidity page... yeah... not so sure... it's probably some low-end clone.

you might want to get your money back if possible... if not, dump it on e-bay and either buy a nova dreamer (which at least we KNOW is half decent from all these people owning one) or just wait for new products to be made by trustworthy people.

#46:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2005
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Wow, thanks for that info. I already sold it on Ebay and got my money back as well. I'm already waiting on my Luma 10 to show up. This of course is a regular mind machine, but I'm excited to do some great chill sessions. It uses the LightWeave technology where the lights are always on, smooth transitions. With your eyes closed, I hear it almost produces the ganzfeld effect and the patterns are amazing. I'll keep the board posted to see how I like it.

kiekeboe

#47: DreamMaker Author: dmaker PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
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My name is Bruce Gelerter I designed DreamMaker and would like to share and answer questions as to the design considerations on detection of REM and how many variables that need to be balanced.

Also to answer any questions and get suggestions.
I really want this to be an advance in technology which I believe it is and will be better with feedback from the LD community.

One change that was suggested was to use different color LEDs instead of just red because when doing a reality check you know if you look left it's Blue for example and then right might be green. I think it will help prevent accomodation where it won't show up in your dreams after awhile.

#48:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
First of all, I'd like to comment on how great this is to have someone actually listening to the community for actual imput on their product. Communicating actively with the consumer base is probably the most productive thing you can do when designing a product.

I have to ask though (with full respect) - What makes this little peice of hardware SO EXPENSIVE? I've seen an online tutorial where you can literally make your own one of these out of a printer cable, some leds, and a pair of sunglasses.

If these were something like 50-100 bucks a peice I'm sure they would sell amazingly fast (ultimately being cost affective). Is there a real reason for the outrageos price? I myself would consider atleast trying it if they were atleast reasonably priced.

#49: Expensive Author: dmaker PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
Well, where do I start? Here is some of what goes into this:

1) The masks are made by a professional seemstress company - custom using $12/yard fabric
but that's nothing compared to the foam in the mask. it's called ultrasoft and is rarely in stock and is ordered custom. The foam comes in Buns - you have to buy at least two for a toal of $20,000 <- That is just for foam Buns! Circuit boards are run in large numbers to keep long term costs down. Then there is contract manufacturing costs to put the parts in the board.
And on and on.. There is a saying - you gotta be there to see there. Anyway you get the idea.
Plus design hours you don't know.
Cost of parts on the PCB approx $15 other costs associated with manufacture and distribution A LOT!
ALso I hired out for a technical writer/ Lucid Dreamer Pro to write the workbook $1500 but worth it. I started the design in October of '04 then I was up till 3am almost everynight until the end of February to get it out the door. Then the first seemstress had like a nervous breakdown and started just throwing things around her place - it was a scarey scene, but had to get another fast. this is what the major delay was.
Anyway there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes. And costs you would not think of that's more than the parts you see.
2) Ive been getting some really cool emails from all diferent Lucid Dreaming backgrounds and I'm really getting excited about what this Lucid Dreaming thing really is. I'm building some ELF (Extreme Low Frequency) equipment to help a college student with his research and thesis. And started to see some really intersting cross corelations with dreaming in general. Such as when your drifting deeper to sleep and your brainwaves slow down more and more they are finding that dreams start at the crossing of 7.83Hz Schuman Resonance. I believe that the universal concousness or the one mind that we share is at this frequency. So it's possible that dreams are the minds interpretation of the actual plugging in to the universal and receiving images from other minds alive or past away. I will post an article eventually based ont he data I currently have it looks quite possible.
Here is the thing - We can make the best tool for exploring Lucid Dreaming if we work together. I am going to setup a yahoo group for discussion.

#50:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
How much time did you guys actually spend testing this? It seems (to me) that you guys might've got more caught up in getting the product out the door as fast as possible than actually working on making it the best you could've.

I can see how it would cost some money putting it together in the first place, but it sounds like the final product is (on a consumer level) not worth buying.

I'm not saying "Ooh, your company mad the mask cost too much", but I am advising you to look at the situation from our view point. "I can either buy this dreamMaker mask for almost 400 bucks, or I can make my own for 20."

#51: Testing for DreamMaker Author: dmaker PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
DreamMaker was tested the best it could be in the short life it has had so far. I was lucky enough to have 20 high school kids available to try the new design before it was shipped. These kids new nothing about Lucid Dreaming and that was what I wanted. They really didn't know what to expect so the data I got back was very good. Over 50% had some form of Lucid Dream within 2 weeks without practicing cues during the day. One of them told me,"I was siting in my kitchen doing my homework and on the table was one of those misting fountains with colored lights. When i looked up from my work I noticed the lights in the fountain were unusually bright and strange. When i put my attention on it i was transported to a room with Dreammaker Masks all over and nobody around. I saw swirls of color on the walls and this is when I realized I was dreaming."

At first there were too many triggers and I needed to turn down the sensitivity. Then there is a variable I call "field selectivity". If the infrared led is set to a "narrow beam" then contrast is increased and detection gets better, BUT only if the narrow beam is located directly on the eyelid. I have been finding that Left/right eye seperation on various people are quite different so it is hard to say "the eyelid should be right here" So then to accomodate the difference in peoples facial geometery the IR beam needed to be made wider instead of narrower. Which meant the sensitivity needed to be increased and so on - a lot of variables that you can only make a best guess on by averaging responses from a number of people. I expected to do upgrades after the release. I did have a good starting point, that of the Nova Dreamer design, then go from there. If you knew there was a degree of error in detection would you choose to error on the side of less more reliable triggers or more triggers - knowing a lot of them would be false? It's a tricky situation. there is only so much testing you can do in the lab - then it needs to go out to the people for feedback.
Here is a challenge for you - you go and spend that $20 on making your own and i will be willing to bet that you would see quickly how big the task of making a reliable Lucid Dream Mask really is. To me it's almost like saying "I saw the schematics for the space shuttle in popular science I can make that for under a thousand bucks. Why does Nasa spend so much?"

#52:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
" I expected to do upgrades after the release. "

That, solely, is why I would'nt want to buy one of these. Would I be getting a good deal if I bought something for 400 bucks that still had problems/had some "guessed" features and additions?

http://www.ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4875

http://www.ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10431

Quote:
i finished it in about 2 hours (it's kinda sloppy, but if it works i'll buy some real cable and a more comfortable pair of glasses and build another one).

#53:  Author: Bernard PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
This thread struck a chord in my memory, so I did a (very quick) search, and found this thread.
http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10014

Were the issues raised here ever dealt with satisfactorily?
If not, I personally would be rather leery of ordering the product.

#54: No EMG in DreamMaker ! Author: Altar PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
There are now photos and more information about DreamMaker on site <mod>url removed, please don't link to vendors</mod>
They wrote that DreamMaker has not EMG. They change their mind, that EMG is good to REM detection.
"We tried using EMG but the results varied too much from person to person."

Altar

#55:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
Here are some questions that I think are important:

1) What's your connection to the Lucidity institute and how much do they actually have to do with your product?

2) What's all that about electromyography detection? How can you detect electricity INSIDE the muscles with an external face mask?

#56:  Author: Bernard PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
You didn't ask me, but...

1)There is no conection with the Lucidity Institute. TLI is working on their own new model.

2) As I understand it, EMG sensors don't neccesarily need to be inserted into muscles -- surface/skin contact is generally sufficient for such purposes.
Additionally, I wouldn't be surprised (wild-assed guess, here) if it turned out to actually be a GSR (galvanic skin response) sensor, anyways.


Last edited by Bernard on Sun 24 Apr, 2005; edited 1 time in total

#57: DreamMaker Author: dmaker PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
I want you all to know that I'm here for you. I thought you wanted more features a newly designed more comfortable mask and such.
It seems you just want it cheaper even if I have to use rubber bands and paperclips to hold it together?
Just tell me what price point you really think is reasonable and features that it must have at that price. Remember the Nova Dreamers reliability was very bad and I'm trying to make it better. The technology right now is not 100%. Together we can better the technology. If I was designing a new laser or something like that it could be totally tested in the lab, but something like this needs to go thru iterations of testing on different people. I could try harder to keep the final cost down if this is the main thing you are looking for.
The concept of EMG was done away with when I saw how people were getting varied results with it. I decided to make the IR detection better. I twould be a lot easier if I could just have head electrodes going to an eeg ciruit then you can get a really good detection of REM but there would be too many issues with that and uncomfortable too.
As far as Lucidity Institute goes when the Nova Dreamer was unattainable by distributors about a year ago a was in communication with them thru Keelin. I wanted to help them with their manufacturing and distribution of their next generation nova Dreamer. We talked for about 8 months then in October of 2004 they had a meeting and decided to just do their conferences and not deal with the Nova Dreamer anymore due to being shorthanded at the Institute.
I knew there was a need for a device like this and set out as fast as possible to provide it. This technology has never been 100% it's still a work in progress - let's get something together everyone will like - for both price and features.

#58:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005
    ----
The biggest problem I have with it (at this time) is, as you pointed out, the price. Unless it works flawlessly ensuring lucid dreams once a day or two days (or something extraordinary like this) I probably will never be able/want to cough up the money for it.

At this point the features don't matter if it costs as much as it does (unless, like I said, it works almost every time). If it works "Ok" or "pretty good" like it seems to now, it'd only be worth putting about a hundred or so dollars in to.

Basically: I would say, either make it work great/flawless, or lower the price of it.

#59:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005
    ----
It is still an absurd price and if you read the previous posts, people claim that they ordered one and never received their dream maker and had problems getting refunds. thumbs down

#60: Re: Testing for DreamMaker Author: Xetrov PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005
    ----
First of all, hello Bruce and welcome to the forum, nice to have you here! I'd like to put my ideas on your mask here based on what I heared so far, perhaps it might be useful to you.

dmaker wrote:
DreamMaker was tested the best it could be in the short life it has had so far. I was lucky enough to have 20 high school kids available to try the new design before it was shipped. These kids new nothing about Lucid Dreaming and that was what I wanted. They really didn't know what to expect so the data I got back was very good. Over 50% had some form of Lucid Dream within 2 weeks without practicing cues during the day.

Ok, so this is a nice test. 50% of subjects got at least one LD during 2 weeks! But according to me (and probably many others here on the forum), if you would put together another group of these students, who dont know anything about LDing, and you would teach them certain well known methods to induce LD's (like WBTB + MILD, which works for a lot of starters very quickly!), my bet is that you could get at least the same result. Granted, one would have to put real effort into it, but this effort would be well worth the result and would not cost anyone 400 dollar (if that is really the price, I would never spend such a huge amount on such a device).

My conclusion sofar would be (and I dont want to offend you personally, this is aimed purely at the product and price), that your tool is a nice gadget for rich people who are too lazy to invest serious effort into learning to expand their nightly endeavours, or for those who wish to try and test a gadget besides their current induction techniques, that might (or might not) help them to gain lucidity and are willing to pay big time for it. Also it might be helpful for people who lack the time to LD seriously, perhaps fot those with a bizzy job schedule and not a lot of sleep. I could see how this could be useful to such people if you were to keep working on the dream maker to make it even more succesful.

-Xetrov.

#61:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Fri 08 Apr, 2005
    ----
I cant say I tested the product enough, but when I was having a lucid on my own, there were no triggers, lights or alarm. I dont think facial twitching, and eye flutters(opening/closing) are reliable. Why only one sensor. Why not 2 one for each eye, where is the logic in that. I agree in this product was not tested enough. I like the business that bruce is in, I think he's doing a great job. This is in my opion but I think Bruce saw a great opportunity to get into this Lucid market since the Nova Dreamer is around 600+. But the product was rushed (even by the consumer) because everyone wanted one.

I think everyone has to find out what works for them. I've had better luck using my Luma 10 at 4 am and playing a lucid induction CD, but that just works for me!

My 2 cents
phoen+++

#62:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Tue 12 Apr, 2005
    ----
I'd definately be willing to give something like this a try. I used to want a Nova Dreamer but they have since become so scarce and expensive that I've abandonded that idea altogether.
Like I said I'd gladly try this and report my results. I'm the kinda guy who's dreams frequently are influenced by outside sensory input, so I have a feeling that this'd work well for me. As for the price, hey, I can always sell it if it doesn't work. At least I'll have tried it.

#63: Re: DreamMaker Author: milod789 PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
dmaker wrote:
It seems you just want it cheaper even if I have to use rubber bands and paperclips to hold it together?


I think that was a sarcastic and exaggerated comment in an effort to justify your high price! No one here wants you to give the thing away for free but, you make an obscene profit on each sale. You know it and so do we. Like someone said, the technology for the dream maker is cheap and people could build one for $20.00 if they have even minor knowledge in electronics. So how do you justify $400.00 per unit.(I also understand that your price is going up to $1000.00 after this trial release).

#64:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
Oh, well, then I will OBVIOUSLY NEVER EVER EVER BUY SOMETHING THAT I CAN MAKE MYSELF FOR FREE AND/OR BUY FOR 39 BUCKS FOR 1000 DOLLARS..

Great job losing a purchase from me and undoubtedly thousands of others

#65:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
squakMix

See this topic I explain how you can just use your own creativity to get a nova dreamer effect. No technical skills required!

#66:  Author: squakMix PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
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Yea, I saw it and linked to it in this thread tounge2

#67: Re: DreamMaker Author: Shaper PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
milod789 wrote:
dmaker wrote:
It seems you just want it cheaper even if I have to use rubber bands and paperclips to hold it together?


I think that was a sarcastic and exaggerated comment in an effort to justify your high price! No one here wants you to give the thing away for free but, you make an obscene profit on each sale. You know it and so do we. Like someone said, the technology for the dream maker is cheap and people could build one for $20.00 if they have even minor knowledge in electronics. So how do you justify $400.00 per unit.(I also understand that your price is going up to $1000.00 after this trial release).


Isn't that the 'Pro' model going up in price?

#68:  Author: phoenelai PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
I wouldnt consider a dream maker until they put 2 sensors, one for each eye to start. One sensor absolutly makes no sense! For a basic test I put the mask on, kept my eyes closed then moved them around inside - no trigger what so ever!

I have more luck playing my CD looping from 3-6 AM. I usually hear it in my dreams and go lucid no problems and that was free!

phoen+
kiekeboe

#69:  Author: Bernard PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
Didn't the NovaDreamer have one eye-movement sensor? (I could be confusing it with a "homebuilt" design)?

Anyways, I would think that one is enough (as both eyes move together). Two sensors might -- or might not -- improve such devices performance.

Does anyone have more specific info?

#70:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
my problem right now is a trust issue...

i don't think the mask EVER had electromyography capabilities, AT BEST it was electrodermal (GSR) or nothing at all... So the fact they suddenly "removed it" cause it wasn't working is all a load of crap... Cause if you WOULD remove it, you'd make it cheaper (since it has one less important feature)... which didn't happen.

I'm still curious as to how the sensors were placed and the data recorded and if this question would be answered I'd probably give the product some slack.

but given the fact he probably lied about it, i don't see why ANYONE should trust him or any of his products.

#71:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr, 2005
    ----
I did some checking.
The Nova Dreamer was $275 (American) and this Dream Maker is $340.
I'd try it for sure, but if it were the same price as the Nova Dreamer, that would be a real plus.

#72:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2005
    ----
MeusOpusMagnus wrote:
my problem right now is a trust issue.


I don’t blame you. Read the original DreamMaker - the new novadreamerthread.

It seems there have been problems with people getting their Dreammaker and the developer ignores inquiries and complaints.

Also has a bad rep with thebetter business Bureau.

#73:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2005
    ----
Wow, after reading that stuff, I think I'll stay away from this perticular product.
Maybe a REM Dreamer would be more worth looking at.

#74:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2005
    ----
Josh Redstone wrote:
Wow, after reading that stuff, I think I'll stay away from this perticular product.
Maybe a REM Dreamer would be more worth looking at.


Those are just the handful of people who bothered to complain. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.

I do not know about the rem dreamer. I have not heard any feed back about it in some time.

Just remember that these devices don’t magically give you lucid dreams. You still have to practice. Furthermore, you don’t need these devices at all to lucid dream.

#75:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr, 2005
    ----
I realize I don't need a device like this, but I'd love to try one out. smile
The remdreamer is $200 Canadian, about $160 American I suppose, much less than the $340 American Dreammaker and certainly wayyyyy less than the discontinued NovaDreamer, which is upwards of $600 American. neutral
I think if I choose to spend my money ona device like this, I'll make it the most inexpensive one ^^

#76: DreamMaker, NovaDreamer, Bruce Gelerter, Wellness Tools Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
DreamMaker, NovaDreamer, Bruce Gelerter, Wellness Tools

WARNING! BEWARE!
If you are considering purchasing the DreamMaker from Bruce Gelerter, Wellness Tools, please be very careful.
From my experience of owning the DreamMaker Basic for over 1 month and the customer service that I have been given by Bruce Gelerter, CEO of Wellness Tools, I can not recommend the DreamMaker Basic as a viable alternative to the Lucidity Institute’s NovaDreamer.

Vendor information:

Bruce Gelerter
Wellness Tools
(aka, dba) - Electromedical Research LLC

3107 W. Colorado Avenue #171
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80904
U.S.A.

1-877-686-8999
719-686-8999
cell phone - 719-330-8439

bruceg@wellnesstools.com – primary email
customers@wellnesstools.com
productsupport@wellnesstools.com
sales@wellnesstools.com

Since sending the following email to Bruce Gelerter stating my concerns of the DreamMaker Basic, Bruce Gerlerter has changed his webpages to reflect the issues that I had pointed out.

The main DreamMaker Basic page contained language that implied that that the DreamMaker Basic is (Quote)
“a single device that will guide you into the Alpha State which is where dreams take place. Then after "parking you" there the Dreammaker will go into REM detection. Now here is the best part - once it detects Rapid Eye Movement (REM) you will have a choice of either having a light pulse which is how the Nova Dreamer worked, or it can signal a pre-programmed audio tape or CD that is made by YOU with YOUR voice and your suggestions or affirmations.”

*** This claim has not been changed from the previous webpage on which I based my purchase. There is no reference in the owner’s manual I received to configure the DreamMaker Basic into guiding a person into the Alpha state. ***

The second part of that claim states that (the DreamMaker) (Quote)
“it can signal a pre-programmed audio tape or CD that is made by YOU with YOUR voice and your suggestions or affirmations.”

*** This is not possible with the DreamMaker Basic which I received, although in the new specifications webpage, there is an inference that this may be possible as an upgradeable option. ***

Another claim that was made in the previous webpage on which I based my purchase touted the inclusion of Electromyography (EMG) components to aid in REM detection.
The current DreamMaker Basic webpage now states that EMG is not used but there is now an (Quote)
“"Automatic Gain Circuit". This will adjust the sensitivity of the detector during the night based on how much background light there is. The less light the more sensitive and the better the accuracy.”

*** This claim of an “Automatic Gain Control” would be difficult for the layman to validate. As an electronics technician, I would like to see a schematic to verify how this is done. ***

In my opinion, the DreamMaker Basic is poorly designed, not adequately tested, rushed into production and overall, a worthless piece of crap.

This is my experience of owning the DreamMaker Basic and the customer service that I have been given by Bruce Gelerter, CEO Wellness Tools. You are strongly encouraged to seek more information before you commit $350 to this product or $500 for the pre-order DreamMaker PRO model and definitely, if you are going to pay $1000, the regular price for the DreamMaker PRO model.

After my email postings, I will be posting a comprehensive list of documented complaints against Bruce Gelerter.

If you have any questions, please contact me.

Steve Pertubal
rassle_co@sbcglobal.net


***************************************************** **********
The following is a copy of the email I sent to Bruce Gelerter at bruceg@wellnesstools.com and his secondary emails on 10 April 2005
***************************************************** **********

Bruce Gelerter,

You will be glad to know that I received my DreamMaker on Monday, 14 March. I suppose you will also be glad to know that you will succeed in pissing off at least another 100 people that were anxiously awaiting their pre-order special of “The next generation ‘NovaDreamer called the DreamMaker’”.

Let me first say that I am also an electronics technician, not a very good one. I couldn’t tell you the *** end of a diode, but I think I would be embarrassed to claim the DreamMaker as my design and to put my company’s name on it.

Let us review the NovaDreamer owner’s manual and operating manual to set the minimum expectations that we should expect from the DreamMaker. Let us also examine the claims that you have presented on your DreamMaker page at
http://www.wellnesstools.com/dreammaker.php

Be aware that I received a one page owner’s manual for my DreamMaker and no Operating instructions whatsoever.

1. Lucidity cues – the NovaDreamer appears to have two LEDs and a small speaker.

*** The DreamMaker has eight LEDs and a small speaker. Now four times the Lucidity cues may seem like a good thing, but in reality, the only difference it makes is having four times the battery drain. This is a very bad thing. ***

2. The Reality Testing Button – the NovaDreamer has the Reality Testing Button conveniently placed in the middle of the mask, prominently there in front.

*** The DreamMaker has a Reality Testing Button located at the top of the circuit board off to the side. Takes some getting used to… ***

3. Training Program – the NovaDreamer has the five unit program “A Course in Lucid Dreaming” and the Stephen LaBerge book “Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming”.

*** The DreamMaker has a workbook written by Kevin P. Loiselle and has the same book written by Stephen LaBerge. ***

4. The NovaDreamer and the DreamMaker both have fabric masks with adjustable Velcro straps.

*** (The foam eyepiece of my DreamMaker came unglued after the first use). ***

5. THE CONTROLS

5.A. THE SLEEPING MODES – The NovaDreamer has four modes

5.A.1. Adjustable – as set by user

5.A.2. Light Sleep – Cue type 1 (both eyes simultaneously, no sound)
2 flashes per second
2 second cue
Intensity level 2

5.A.3. Medium Sleep – Cue type 1 (both eyes simultaneously, no sound)
2 flashes per second
6 second cue
Intensity level 4

5.A.4. Deep Sleep – Cue type 4 (both eyes simultaneously, with sound)
2 flashes per second
10 second cue
Intensity level 5

*** The DreamMaker has an adjustable sleeping mode only. Cue type 1 or 4 (both eyes simultaneously, with or without sound, as set by DIP (Dual In-Line Package) switch 6), 2 flashes per second, 15 second cue, Intensity level – Adjustable ***

5.B. THE CUE ADJUSTMENT – The NovaDreamer has four cue adjustments in the adjustable sleeping mode.

5.B.1. Number – selects the number of times the cue flashes or beeps (from 1 to 255)

*** The DreamMaker does not have this option (fixed 15 second cue) ***

5.B.2. Intensity – Selects among 6 levels of cue brightness and sound

*** The DreamMaker has separate dials for setting cue brightness
and sound levels. ***

5.B.3. Rate – Selects the rate at which the cue flashes and/or beeps (from 1 to 6/sec)

*** The DreamMaker does not have this option. ***

5.B.4. Type – Selects among the following types of cues:
5.B.4.a. Type 0: No Cues
5.B.4.b. Type 1: Light only, flashing in both eyes simultaneously
5.B.4.c. Type 2: Light only, alternating flashes in left and right eyes
5.B.4.d. Type 3: Sound only
5.B.4.e. Type 4: Light and sound, flashing in both eyes simultaneously
5.B.4.f. Type 5: Light and sound, alternating flashes in left and right eyes

*** The DreamMaker has Type 1 or Type 4 cues: Light flashing in both eyes simultaneously, sound on or off as set by DIP switch 6 ***

5.C. THE PERSONAL EYE MOVEMENT ADJUSTMENT MODE (9) - Mode 9 on the dial is for setting the sensitivity of the NovaDreamer. In this mode you can review the number of cues you received the last time you used the device and you can select from 6 levels of sensitivity to eye movements

*** The DreamMaker does not have a personal eye movement adjustment mode.
I WOULD CONSIDER THIS TO BE THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE OF THE NOVADREAMER. ***

5.D. THE DELAY– To enable you to fall asleep without being disturbed by cues triggered by the eye movements that normally occur during sleep onset, the NovaDreamer is equipped with a “delay” feature. Starting a delay prevents the NovaDreamer from giving cues for a period of time, so you can fall asleep without interruption. The NovaDreamer provides for an adjustable delay from 0 to at least 80 minutes.

*** The DreamMaker provides for a delay of 0 OR 40 minutes
(as set by DIP switch 4) ***

5.E. THE DREAMALARM – The NovaDreamer provides the DreamAlarm feature to help you develop your dream recall, which is essential for success with lucid dreaming. People are most likely to recall details of a dream if they are awakened from it. If you choose, the DreamAlarm will awaken you from your dreams, so that you may recall them clearly.
The DreamAlarm is a 42 second alarm that flashes brightly and beeps loudly to awaken you. When enabled, the DreamAlarm is activated five minutes after each cue it gives. Thus, when the DreamAlarm awakens you, you will know that five minutes ago, you received a cue from the NovaDreamer. Then, you can remember what you were just dreaming and see if you can recall seeing any incorporation of a lucidity clue in it. If you remember dreaming but not seeing a cue, this is an indication that you need a more noticeable cue.

*** The DreamMaker DOES NOT HAVE a DreamAlarm feature.
I WOULD CONSIDER THIS TO BE THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FEATURE THAT THE NOVADREAMER PROVIDES. READ THE DESCRIPTION AGAIN TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHY THIS WOULD BE IMPORTANT. Considering that the DreamMaker has FOUR DUAL CMOS TIMERS, I can only shake my head. ***

Now, to evaluate the claims on your webpage at http://www.wellnesstools.com/dreammaker.php

Claim #1
“Imagine if you will a single device that will guide you into the Alpha State which is where dreams take place. Then after "parking you" there the Dreammaker will go into REM detection. Now here is the best part - once it detects Rapid Eye Movement (REM) you will have a choice of either having a light pulse which is how the Nova Dreamer worked, or it can signal a pre-programmed audio tape or CD that is made by YOU with YOUR voice and your suggestions or affirmations. Interesting concept, huh? “

*** OK, Bruce, how does the DreamMaker “guide you into the Alpha State”? How does it park you there? How does it signal a pre-programmed audio tape or CD?
There are no references to the ability to do any of those things in the owner’s manual. There is a connector and an audio plug-in but no mention of how to implement these items. ***

Claim #2
“The first is just like the Nova Dreamer and is called the DreamMaker, and like I said earlier it's reliable detection of REM is greatly improved over it's predecessor the Nova Dreamer, here's why. The Nova Dreamer detects REM via a sensor which bounces light off the eyelid and then filters out noise or rapid movements. This method is somewhat unreliable as you might of heard on newsgroups about the Nova Dreamer. Things like false triggers or no trigger at all. So what we did was to add another way to detect REM. It turns out that Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.”

*** Like I said before, I am an electronics technician and just looking at the circuit board, I can identify the infrared emitter and the photosensor. Would you be kind as to point out the EMG components? There is no mention of them in the owner’s manual. ***


Those are my observations after 4 weeks of owning the DreamMaker. I apologize if I have any of these facts incorrect and would appreciate the opportunity to correct any of these discrepancies. Though I suppose a decent owner’s manual, operating instructions, a tutorial or even a schematic would be too much to ask from you.

I am certain that the only reason I got this DreamMaker is because it would not function as a “PRO” model. I found a defective R19 and numerous cold solder joints

At least, I have this halfway functioning DreamMaker to show for my ignorance… other people, unfortunately, have not been so lucky, have they, Bruce?

I should have heeded the warning signs when I could not pay for my purchase with my Visa or MasterCard. Instead, I had to open a PayPal account. And now, none of your online merchant options seem to be working.

I should have searched the Google newsgroups for “Bruce Gelerter” or “wellnesstools.com” or “Electromedical Research, LLC”.

I should have checked review sites, such as badbusinessbureau.com or epinions.com to find recommendations or warnings about your business practices.

I would send this piece of crap back to you in a heartbeat, but I am certain that would be the last I ever saw of my DreamMaker or the $210.75 special price I paid for the pre-order.
And now the DreamMaker is selling for almost $350, and the “PRO” model, pre-ordering for almost $500 and retailing for almost $1000. Heaven help those who have already fallen for your deceptive advertisements. I hope they have better luck.

It would be nice to get a reply from you, but I’m not holding my breath. I now consider it my moral obligation to warn everyone about the DreamMaker, about you, and your questionable business practices.

Have a nice life.

From: Steve Pertubal

#77:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce,
I expected to hear from you long before this, but maybe you didn't get my previous email, so I am sending to you again in its entireity.




Bruce Gelerter,
You will be glad to know that I received my DreamMaker on Monday, 14 March. I suppose you will also be glad to know that you will succeed in pissing off at least another 100 people that were anxiously awaiting their pre-order special of “The next generation ‘NovaDreamer called the DreamMaker’”.

<snip>

#78:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Steve,
I usually don't respond to *** who don't know what they are talking about. I especially don't like being judged. I have a lot of happy customers who are able to afford
quality products. I will be posting their testimonials shortly. If you want to judge someone you need to first try going from design to production in just 2 months and keep the *** off your butt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bruce Gelerter - CEO
Wellness Tools

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 5:12 AM
To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com; customers@wellnesstools.com; productsupport@wellnesstools.com; sales@wellnesstools.com
Subject: DreamMaker Review (2)
Bruce,
I expected to hear from you long before this, but maybe you didn't get my previous email, so I am sending to you again in its entireity.

<snip>

#79:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce,
Far be it from me to judge anyone. I merely stated the facts that are presented to me and tried to be civil about it. You respond by calling me an "***".
Perhaps you could have spent a little more time on the design and gotten it right the first time so you would have "quality products" and "***" (Do you mean customers?) wouldn't be jumping in your shit.
I would have been happy to trade my DreamMaker in for something that worked and kept my comments to myself... But if that's the way you want to play, so be it. You had your chance to do the right thing.
Steve Pertubal

>From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com>
>To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (2)
>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:52:26 -0600
>
>Steve,
>I usually don't respond to *** who don't know what they are talking
>about. I especially don't like being judged. I have a lot of happy customers
>who are able to afford
>quality products. I will be posting their testimonials shortly. If you want
>to judge someone you need to first try going from design to production in
>just 2 months and keep the *** off your butt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Bruce Gelerter - CEO
>Wellness Tools
>

<snip>

#80:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
If you were to reply with some constructive comments that would have been different.
I'm more than willing to look at design changes even on units that have been shipped already. I'm about being ProActive.
But you came at me in an attacking way - saying 100 more people are going to be pissed and what is this and that!
I would love to talk about designs and possible changes to make it better - I don't like being attacked!
Or being thought of as someone trying to come in and rip people off to make a quick buck. I'm here for the long term trying to do the best I can.
If you want to start over in that sort of way then I'm open to hear it. I would not believe how hard I worked on this DreaMaker to make it a success and I still want that - if you have input to make it better -great!
Bruce


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:34 AM
To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com
Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (2)


Bruce,

Far be it from me to judge anyone. I merely stated the facts that are
presented to me and tried to be civil about it. You respond by calling me an "***".

<snip>

#81:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
I sent you an email requesting further information; a more comprehensive owner's manual, operating instructions, a tutorial or even a schematic. You sent me nothing but asked me to call you. I called you numerous times and left messages but never received a callback. Previous to that, I sent many emails concerning the status of my DreamMaker order. Many went unanswered. I am not used to being treated like this as a paying customer. What was I supposed to do Bruce?
The biggest problem with the DreamMaker Basic is the lack of the "Dream Alarm". There are four dual CMOS timers, that's 8 - "555 timer" circuits. Use one for the Dream Alarm delay after REM detection and one for the Dream Alarm duration.
Bottom line - I just want to have lucid dreams. Apparently, this DreamMaker I received is not going to do the job. Now you can do what's right and send me something that will do the job as advertised or we can continue the email tag.


>From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com>
>To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (2)
>Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:04:51 -0600
>
>If you were to reply with some constructive comments that would have been
>different.
>I'm more than willing to look at design changes even on units that have been
>shipped already. I'm about being ProActive.
>But you came at me in an attacking way - saying 100 more people are going to
>be pissed and what is this and that!

<snip>

#82:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
OK - all the timers are used up. Several are just for the beep sequence.
Timers are used for the REM detection as well. For example there is a 2 sec astable timer constantly sending pulses to a 10 second monostable timer which prevents the 10 sec one from timing out. Once the 2 sec timer is interupted by a constant signal from the detector for at least 2 seconds it will allow the 10 second timer to time out in a nother 8 seconds once it does it sends a pulse to the other timers to inititiate a REM event. THis is done to make sure it really is a REM event and not just motion artifacts from rolling around.
There are no extra timers. This design was for basic functions of REM detection the more advanced functions that you have been asking about are in the Pro version. Such as: Dream Alarm programming, Light/Sound Functions to bring you into "State", Charting REM events during the night, Other timer functions such as sleep delay, etc
If you are not getting triggers during the night I can increase the sensitivity for you and I can change the LEDs to other colors but that's it for the Basic.
Bruce


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:07 AM
To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com
Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (2)


I sent you an email requesting further information; a more comprehensive owner's manual, operating instructions, a tutorial or even a schematic. You sent me nothing but asked me to call you. I called you numerous times and left messages but never received a callback. Previous to that, I sent many emails concerning the status of my DreamMaker order. Many went unanswered. I am not used to being treated like this as a paying customer. What was I supposed to do Bruce?

<snip>

#83:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce,
Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. My daughter had some college presentation so we were gone all week end.
Well, it looks like we are still at an impasse on this DreamAlarm issue. To say that this is an “advanced function” available only on the “PRO” model will not win any supporters.
Increasing the trigger sensitivity or changing the LED colors won’t do anything to let me know that lucidity cues were given in the first place. That’s why the DreamAlarm function is so vitally important. The NovaDreamer’s DreamAlarm function provided for an opportunity to wake up from a dream five minutes after REM detection and the lucidity cues were given so that a person could review the dream and try to determine what or if any dream signals were received.
Otherwise, I would just hook up some Christmas lights to a lamp timer, set to go off every 90 minutes and hope I get lucky. Maybe, I would set an alarm clock to go off every 95 minutes to help the dream recall.
One of my first projects was a car alarm using a 555 timer. I used the courtesy light as a trigger and a simple RC network to honk the horn for a short while, then it went back into a “listening mode”.
I think your design may have too many extraneous events for the timers. I see a 15 second astable circuit for the LED and sound cues, and there is the 40 minute sleep delay. What are you using the other timers for? Are you using the IR detection as the primary trigger? If you had it in a “listening mode”, then the IR detection could be used as a trigger. Use one timer to “debounce” and then go into the astable for the LED & sound cues. That signal to start the astable could also be used to start a “DreamAlarm” countdown timer going into another astable for the actual “DreamAlarm” with the RC network to reset the whole thing.
There as numerous 555 timer webpages on the net with sample circuits that you may find helpful. I had gotten a 556 timer pin-out diagram and had thought to reverse-engineer the DreamMaker since you are so reluctant to provide a schematic.
Steve Pertubal




From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com> >To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (2) >Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:40:14 -0600 > >OK - all the timers are used up. Several are just for the beep sequence. >Timers are used for the REM detection as well. For example there is a 2 sec >astable timer constantly sending pulses to a 10 second monostable timer

<snip>

#84:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Hi Steve,
I have one timer left over in one of the 556 packages. If I can work it into the dream alarm would that be the feature that would win you over - to make DreamMaker basic a good or great value?? I also have extra dip switches that I can use for a possible timer setting - any suggestions on their use?
Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 6:36 AM
To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com
Subject: DreamMaker Review (3)
Bruce,
Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. My daughter had some college presentation so we were gone all week end.
Well, it looks like we are still at an impasse on this DreamAlarm issue. To say that this is an “advanced function” available only on the “PRO” model will not win any supporters.
<snip>

#85:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce,
As I have alluded to before, yes, the DreamAlarm function is the most important feature next to the REM detection. One of the extra DIP switches could be used to select different sleep delays. How about sending me a schematic? It's really hard to make out some of these resistor values.
Steve


From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com> >To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (3) >Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:37:02 -0600 > >Hi Steve, >I have one timer left over in one of the 556 packages. If I can work it into >the dream alarm would that be the feature that would win you over - to make >DreamMaker basic a good or great value?? I also have extra dip switches that >I can use for a possible timer setting - any suggestions on their use? >Bruce > >
<snip>

#86:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Steve, >This is a brand new product release with a patent pending, I can't send you >a schematic. You don't have to design anything anyway. Just tell me what >changes you would like to see, such as the dream alarm and if there is >enough resources on the board then I will put it in. the PCB is pretty >packed already and I can't fit much more on this board - but possibly the >dream alarm. That would be about it. >Bruce Gelerter > > > -----Original Message----- >From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com] >Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:35 PM >To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com >Subject: DreamMaker Review (4) > > > Bruce, > > As I have alluded to before, yes, the DreamAlarm function is the most >important feature next to the REM detection.
<snip>

#87:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce,
That is just too funny, I'll bet the patent lawyer asked for his fee up front in cash. So all I have to do, is add a couple of RC networks and I can steal your patent and business. The circuit is not that complicated and I should have it mapped out real soon. Then I can figure out where to put the DreamAlarm circuits. Well, I'm sorry that I can't help you any further. Good Luck.
Steve

From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com> >To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (4) >Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:32:55 -0600 > >Steve, >This is a brand new product release with a patent pending, I can't send you >a schematic. You don't have to design anything anyway. Just tell me what >changes you would like to see, such as the dream alarm and if there is >enough resources on the board then I will put it in. the PCB is pretty >packed already and I can't fit much more on this board - but possibly the >dream alarm. That would be about it. >Bruce Gelerter > > > -----Original Message----- >From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com] >Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:35 PM >To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com >Subject: DreamMaker Review (4) > > > Bruce, > > As I have alluded to before, yes, the DreamAlarm function is the most >important feature next to the REM detection.
<snip>

#88:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Well - there you have it ! I tried being nice but it seems that all along you were just a jealous half baked technician trying to put down the DreamMaker design and at the same time try to steal it. I will pray for you - maybe. You won't get anywhere with that kind of thinking - good luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 2:59 AM
To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com
Subject: DreamMaker Review (5)
Bruce,
That is just too funny, I'll bet the patent lawyer asked for his fee up front in cash. So all I have to do, is add a couple of RC networks and I can steal your patent and business. The circuit is not that complicated and I should have it mapped out real soon. Then I can figure out where to put the DreamAlarm circuits. Well, I'm sorry that I can't help you any further. Good Luck.
Steve

From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com> >To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (4) >Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:32:55 -0600 > >Steve, >This is a brand new product release with a patent pending, I can't send you >a schematic. You don't have to design anything anyway. Just tell me what >changes you would like to see, such as the dream alarm and if there is >enough resources on the board then I will put it in. the PCB is pretty >packed already and I can't fit much more on this board - but possibly the >dream alarm. That would be about it. >Bruce Gelerter > > > -----Original Message----- >From: Steve & Leah Pertubal [mailto:rassle_co@hotmail.com] >Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 11:35 PM >To: bruceg@wellnesstools.com >Subject: DreamMaker Review (4) > > > Bruce, > > As I have alluded to before, yes, the DreamAlarm function is the most >important feature next to the REM detection.
<snip>

#89:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce, Bruce, Bruce,
You seriously do not get it. I was just being nice to string you along. To see if you actually wanted to do the right thing and straighten out your DreamMaker fiasco. Apparently not. I was willing to help you with the DreamAlarm circuitry, which really is not that difficult to implement.
Then you come back with this totally assinine crap about a "patent pending". Well, Bruce, do you hold the patent? You're a fool, if you tried to patent that half-*** design and what does that have to do with giving me the schematic. Just for your information, I am building a Kvasar.
Anyway, coming to Google and LD4all among others...really soon, my complete DreamMaker review, including emails with the CEO of the company... hope you didn't incriminate yourself so badly that it hurts your bottom line. I hope you did not hock the farm to finance your DreamMaker scam.
My "kind of thinking" as I stated in my earlier email is to warn everyone I can about your crappy DreamMaker and you and your questionable business practices. I feel I got ripped off, but I'm going to eat this loss. Finally, I don't get even, I get ahead, and I'm going to enjoy *** you...hard.
Good Luck, really (smirk)


From: "Bruce Gelerter" <bruceg@wellnesstools.com> >To: "Steve & Leah Pertubal" <rassle_co@hotmail.com> >Subject: RE: DreamMaker Review (5) >Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:38:43 -0600 > >Well - there you have it ! I tried being nice but it seems that all along >you were just a jealous half baked technician trying to put down the >DreamMaker design and at the same time try to steal it. I will pray for >you - maybe. You won't get anywhere with that kind of thinking - good luck!

<snip>

#90:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
smile this is a pretty funny exchange of e-mails.

Bruce is right in one way: the "advanced" features on the DreamMaker were advertized only for the Pro, which is much more expensive (for no particular reason, the extra components/software programming was minimal).

Other than that, he just used big words for nothing. Apparently the "EMG" didn't really work and they took it out... my belief is he doesn't even properly understand EMG and used EDA (electrodermal activity, or gsr) instead...
Other claims (such an affiliation with the Lucidity Institute) are also just lies to get people's trust.

The whole thing is just a huge scam to me.

As for the Kvasar, good luck with that! i never got mine to work properly, i think the IR sensor wasn't placed properly over my eye, but i hear this problem also occured with the DreamMaker (where it picks up eye fluttering, but not subtle eye movement)... After toying around with the placement and breaking two sensors (which I had to order through my college as samples because they wouldn't ship for under 50$ and i couldn't find them anywhere else) I gave up on that and decided IR detection wasn't reliable enough.

Right now I'm trying to come up with a design that uses EDA primarily, so if you're into electronics and you think you could help, let me know. The idea is to turn skin resistance (which changes) into sound frequency and plug that into a computer through the line in. From there, everything is software based and the output to be made on one of those cheap, easy to build, lpt driven light machines (or alternatively, other cues, like, sound, vibrations, etc). Downpart is the computer connection...

We don't know if it will work (not knowing how reliable EDA is compared to IR detection, maybe it's not that good at all), but it's all about the research anyway. Apparently skin resistance drops significantly during REM... but we'll see.

#91:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
I think it would only be proper since you pointed out that "Bruce is right in one way", that in my opinion, Bruce is so definitely wrong in possibly hundreds of ways. Someone earlier posted that where there is smoke, there is fire;where for every one person that complains, there a lot more people that just say "forget it".
Galvonic skin resistance to detect REM... way too complex for me. I still think IR detection is the simplest way to go, I'll let you know how the Kvasar works out.
I just went to the DreamMaker site. There are now testimonials from "satisfied customers"... most of them from Colorado Springs...hahaha
Did anyone notice that Bruce just dropped off of this forum after people uncovered his past?

#92:  Author: Bernard PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2005
    ----
I'd suggest that this exchange basically confirms the story that one finds when searching the net. This subject might be worth a sticky topic of its own -- It's a story that's been discussed on this board a fair bit already.

To wit:

*Inflated, misleading and frequently revised (downwards) claims and assertations. Poorly designed, poorly built products, that don't perform as advertised, let alone accomplish the desired goal. That's assuming the product actually arrives after it's been paid for.

*Generally poor service, lots of excuses, and special pleading, denial of responsability. There are occassional "example cases" of better service but they appear to be strongly atypical cases (and generally these people aren't -- as far as I can tell -- well known to any community where they appear or are refered to) . The Better Business Bureau, bulletin boards like this one, "fraud watch" style websites and organaziations, and and a surprising number of spcially created websites document an ongoing pattern of dissatisfied costomers.

*A pronounced tendency to blame the customer for not accepting excuses, or for not considering promises to someday deal with the problem as equivilent to actually dealing with the problem. Often accompanied (several exchanges down the line) by variations on the "if you had been more constructive/nicer/more trusting, I would have fixed your problem yesterday" speech -- often completely ignoring the actual content of the original complaint.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And a question for anyone in the know -- what exactly about this product would be patentable?

As far as I know, anything that is legitimately patentable has already been patented by LaBerge or The Lucidity Institute (which perhaps wasn't really properly patentable, but at least the case could be made) and is probably near expiry date by now anyways. Certainly nothing in Gelerter's device get's around "prior art" considerations.

#93:  Author: reddog PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
You know, no one would be here with this problem letting people know " HEY it's a rip off, save your money" if the dreammaker cost $99 dollars and the dreammaker pro cost $149.

#94:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
Well I personally would not buy any of this guys products.
Anyway, the dream maker(and its problems) has been discussed many times before:
DreamMaker - the new novadreamer
Dream Maker - Phoen's Personal Review
Perhaps a mod could merge all the dream maker topics into one thread for people to read.

#95:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
I am sorry to be beating a dead horse, just going on and on about this. I wish I had done my research and found this forum before buying the DreamMaker.

reddog, I hope you are wrong. Yes, more people would be inclined to just say "forget it", but getting ripped off is no deal, at any price.

#96:  Author: MeusOpusMagnus PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
i think the price has a lot to do with unsatisfied customers, and i don't see why that's wrong in any way. At least you know for 99$ you don't expect spectacular features that were claimed to exist... If it comes and you see it doesn't have EMG, then whatever, it was 99$ and the price is somewhat justified (25 - 50$ for components MAX, and 50$ for research/profit)...

But when you ask way too much for something that (not that it doesn't work, it may work, but it's not what it was claimed to be) of course people will get upset

#97:  Author: Johan PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
milod789 wrote:
Well I personally would not buy any of this guys products.
Anyway, the dream maker(and its problems) has been discussed many times before:
DreamMaker - the new novadreamer
Dream Maker - Phoen's Personal Review
Perhaps a mod could merge all the dream maker topics into one thread for people to read.


Good idea.

The three topics have been merged. Please don't post about DreamMaker outside this topic.

#98:  Author: reddog PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2005
    ----
You seem to know about this stuff alot rassle. You talked about novadreamer as if you used it. Does novadreamer work? Readding what you have posted I believe that it works better then dreammaker, but if the dreammaker doesn't work, that isn't saying much.

EDIT: also wanted to know if it would do what the little news clip showed, be able to walk you into a WILD in 15mins. Something I have only done twice in my life. Most my lucid dreams don't last long(maybe 3mins), most the time I wake. Last night I was looking at my feet and my right foot had two more feet on the other side of it, was a dead give away. I got out of bed and walked out side and the sky was black, strange because every time before the sky was purple and gray with lighting. The spining thing worked also I did that for the first time other wise I wouldn't have made it out side.

Is this what they call outter-body?

#99:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2005
    ----
reddog, I don't know a whole lot, but as a technician, I tend to look at things logically. I found the NovaDreamer operations manual online so I had that as a basis on which to judge the DreamMaker. From researching the NovaDreamer, I knew a little of its operation, so when the DreamMaker came out advertising all these great improvements with a pre-order price of $200 and seeing how the NovaDreamer was no longer being produced and the remaining stock selling for upwards of $700 for the Basic model... yeah, I took that blind leap. Fool I was.
I was thinking of selling it on eBay, but I would be just as bad as Bruce Gelerter, ripping people off. So I am going to eat this loss, but I am going to do my part to warn people about Bruce Gelerter.

#100:  Author: Enamored_Spirit PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2005
    ----
He seems a bit childish for a company CEO. Certainly not professional. I think he's got manufacturer-customer misunderstandings too. I don't mean to be a jerk, but frankly, you don't give a paying customer a sob story guilt trip. You give them the product as described or you give them their money back, how dare they try to make the customer(who was completely deceived and ripped off [even if he's telling the truth and that wasn't his intention]) feel guilty for complaining??

#101:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2005
    ----
"The Costomer is always right!"

Our pal Bruce has forgotten this.

#102:  Author: Enamored_Spirit PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2005
    ----
I think being an ***, even if you are a customer is wrong. But calling your customer one(esp. one with valid concerns), is a bad idea.

#103:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Fri 29 Apr, 2005
    ----
Bruce Gelerter calls himself a CEO, but it's just a one man operation. He isn't childish, in my opinion, he is a outright con-artist. Bruce has been involved in "Get Rich Quick" schemes for a long time. Search Google.
Just wanted to let you all know, that he is now trying to sell his junk through Amazon.com
I'm trying to get a review posted.

#104:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Fri 29 Apr, 2005
    ----
Just an FYI if you have problems with this product:

Complain to the better business bureau so there is a record of complaints but don’t expect action. The BBB is just a private not for profit organization and has no authority of law.

Complain to:

Your states bureau of consumer affairs and your states attorney generals office.

#105:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Sat 30 Apr, 2005
    ----
You are correct, milod789, Thanks. The BBB is pretty much just a toothless tiger, but all you have to do, is respond to the charges and they clear your record.
I'll just keep tracking Bruce Gelerter and try to stop him before he can get anything started.

#106:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 01 May, 2005
    ----
Rassle Co wrote:
You are correct, milod789, Thanks. The BBB is pretty much just a toothless tiger, but all you have to do, is respond to the charges and they clear your record.
I'll just keep tracking Bruce Gelerter and try to stop him before he can get anything started.


Yes, the BBB is toothless but you should still complain to them if you have a problem.

However, your states bureau of consumer affairs and attorney generals office are not toothless. They have legal authority and resources to go after people. The Bureau of Consumer Affairs shut down priceline.com for a while because of complaints.

#107: I bought it... Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul, 2005
    ----
Teach me to research things properly before buying them on the internet... sigh. sadblauw

This was earlier today, though, so it couldn't have been shipped yet.

I sent bruce a very nice e-mail asking to please refund my money and not ship, I hope he really is just a nice guy who isn't very good at business...

It pains me to do it, to be honest, even with everyhting that has been said here... If he really is a bad guy, he's at least at good actor. Or I'm more of a moron than I give myself credit for.

Either way, I figure if he doesn't comply, I go through the proper procedure with paypal, and all is well with the world?

I could use the voice of experience here, I've never screwed up a purchase this bad, before.

Thank you.

#108: DO NOT BUY DREAM MAKER from wellnesstools!!!! SCAM SCAM SCAM Author: buddy PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
i was scammed by bruce of wellness tool when purchasing a dream maker pro. buyer beware this guy is a con artist and will rip you off if you give him the chance. i purchased the dream maker pro in november and still havent recieved it. what i did recieve was a cheaply made peice of crap that i cant even sleep with it that uncomfortable. its so badly put together it was falling appart when i recieved it. i am very dishartened by this expirience and doubt i will order any thing online soon. after 20+ emails to bruce and no replies ive given up hope. i hope you can all learn from my bad expirience and stay away from this con.
IMO what bruce did was use the preorder money to put together a poorly designed unit that cost $50 at the very most. no doubt his living it up as we speak.

$500 down the drain.

very disappointed

#109:  Author: fear PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
eh wow.. that sucks man.. there has got to be a way you can sue or atleast get your money back.. espeically if it was $500 cry

#110:  Author: buddy PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
i don't have the means to sue this guy as im located outside of america. i requested a refund several times and didn't get a reply. i also informed him that if it wasn't resolved i would go public on these boards. this didn't seem to worry him as it was several months ago and nothing was done. by now bruce has probably take the money and run so i doubt theres much i can do. i will take this as an expencive lesson and learn from it.

#111:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
I'm not in the US either, but that isn't stopping me. I have returned the package, and when it gets to him, I'll expect my money back. If he doesn't give it to me, I'll sue him. A friend of mine is a lawyer in the US, will help me out.

And because it's about principle now, I won't stop suing him until he does what he promises to do on his site anyway, there's a 30 day money back guarantee.

If it goes that far, we might be able to co-sue him?

Worse comes to worse, he's the one that's ***.

If he doesn't cause a problem, though, there's nothing I can do, sorry.

#112:  Author: iadr PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
Not to change the subject, but way back of page one of this gigantic post I saw where someone mentioned hooking up a strobe light to a timer and setting the timer to flash at times you expect to be in Rem sleep.

It seems to be me that this would be an incredible inexpensive and easy method to use for becoming lucid as you would merely need to set the timer to go off every hour and half.
Not only that but I think a strobe light could possibly even be more effective than wearing a mask since whenever I used to use the Nova Dreamer I usually just ripped it off and threw it on the other side of room in my sleep anyway. Not to mention the fact that it was a piece of shit that didn't work right.

Has anyone tried a strobe light with a timer or have any suggestions on what to look for in buying one ?

#113:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Mon 01 Aug, 2005
    ----
heh, if you don't mind the guesswork, it probably IS better... and since they say the rem detection sucks anyway...

you can also jsut make a sound file on your computer that'll cue you ever timed interval, or hell, use a regular audiostrobe thing with a similar file for light cues..

#114:  Author: Rassle Co PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2005
    ----
Sorry, you all had to go through that BS also... All we can do is try to stop Gerlerter wherever he pops up... Keep your eyes open! I last posted a rebuttal to his Amazon store. But I haven't kept up with it. Anyone know any petty criminals in Colorado that would be willing to talk to Gerlerter, up close and personal? I'd be willing to donate to that cause.

#115:  Author: buddy PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2005
    ----
i would like to return the product also but i already had to fork out over $100 for shipping and another $100 duties fee's. this is another thing that realy pissed me off. i havent even recieved the pro unit and there will be more fee's if that ever comes. i'm sure karma will sort bruce out.

Sushupti perhapt if we got a group of people from here who were also ripped off to for a co-alliance of sorts and all sue. im sure there will be others here who could use the help.

any thoughts?

#116:  Author: iadr PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2005
    ----
I'd suggest filing a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission here in the U.S. in addition to a personal lawsuit.
http://www.ftc.gov/ftc/consumer.htm
Click on file a complaint and fill out the form. Although they won't work on getting you a refund personally, they will shut this guy down.

Also, if you go to Google and search for Internet Fraud you will find several organizations that will help you in putting some heat on this company.

#117:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2005
    ----
Buddy, my lawyer says if I could get 40-50 people who also got screwed by him, it owuld be easy to get some good lawyer to do it pro-bono, because lawyers like federal court, or something.

I'll ask him about small numbers.

But people, please, hold on on "having a personal conversation" or shutting him down till after I get my money back wink5

thanks.

#118:  Author: iadr PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005
    ----
You are absolutely right Sushupti.

Some kind of a class action suit with a lot of people involved does make a lot more sense.

But I would take advantage of all of the free resources like the consumer fraud organizations first, because they can sometimes put enough heat on someone to make them want to comply willingly.

A simple letter from the Federal Trade Commission to a company has straightened problems out for me a couple of times, as they were almost begging me to take their refund back after hearing from the Federal Trade Commission.

#119:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005
    ----
Awesome, I'll ask my lawyer about that. I think he secretly wants my friendly approach not to work, he wants to play in federal court. I kept very complete records of every exchange I had with Bruce, since even before it went sour, so he's certain we can't lose.

I dunno, I sorta just want my money back :\

#120:  Author: iadr PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2005
    ----
Not wishing to change the subject again, but anyway who owns the Brainwave Generator program already has everything they need to create a strobe light using their computer monitor that can be programmed to go off whenever and for however long they want during the night to try and use to become lucid with. Of course your computer monitor would need to be fairly close to your bed for this to work, but it does work very well, and is very versatile. Here are some steps for setting up the Brainwave Generator to use your monitor as a strobe light.

1) Select Options, then select Full Screen
2) Select Options, Visual Color Options
2) Put a checkmark in the Override Visual Color Options Of Individual Presets
3) Click on the 1st color and select Modify color
4) Set this first color to black as this will be the color your screen will start with and remain with until it begins cycling through the colors, which will leave your computer screen dark until the flashing begins.
5) Keep the second color as is
6) Select Add and select something like a bright red for the third color
7) Select Add and select something like a bright yellow for the fourth color
8. Add any other colors you wish or change any of the above you wish except for the first one.
9) Click OK
10) Open the properties box
11) Click on the Visual tab
12) Take the X out of the track another parameter if one is in there
13) Select the Visual Brightness dropdown box and select Full brightness
14) Set the first 60 or 90 minutes, however it long it takes you to start dreaming to 0.
14) Set the remaining part of the preset for whatever and whenever you want the flashing to take place. In my early experiments today it seemed like 20 produces a good flash.
15) Test the preset by changing the length to 1 and watching it, then change it back before actually using it.
16) If you want to set up a strobe light without any of the binarual beat sounds, just set the Sound Volume on the Sound tab to Zero Volume.
16) Under the Options menu there is also an option for using External Goggles (AudioStrobe) for anyone who wants to try this with goggles.

#121:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005
    ----
iadr wrote:
Not to change the subject, but way back of page one of this gigantic post I saw where someone mentioned hooking up a strobe light to a timer and setting the timer to flash at times you expect to be in Rem sleep.

It seems to be me that this would be an incredible inexpensive and easy method to use for becoming lucid as you would merely need to set the timer to go off every hour and half.
Not only that but I think a strobe light could possibly even be more effective than wearing a mask since whenever I used to use the Nova Dreamer I usually just ripped it off and threw it on the other side of room in my sleep anyway. Not to mention the fact that it was a piece of shit that didn't work right.

Has anyone tried a strobe light with a timer or have any suggestions on what to look for in buying one ?


That was me. Yes, it did work (for me anyways). I have not used it in some time but, when I go through drys spells I pull it out and it works great. It takes some time to play with it to get the timing right. But the hole set up cost me less than $50.00 so the extra time it took me was well worth it. If you wanted you could also hook up a tape player as well so you would also get audio cues.


As for all others who have had problems with wellness tools and this guy Bruce:

I think you should all ban together and file a class action lawsuit. That is what your friend is talking about. A lawyer probably won’t do it pro bono but on a contingency fee which means he will only get paid if he wins.

I know that lucidity.com used to have a link to Wellness Tools. If they still do I am going to write to Labarge and ask him to take down the link.

#122:  Author: iadr PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005
    ----
Thanks milod789 for the great inspiration you have given me with that idea of yours. I have just spent the entire evening changing my bedroom around around so that my computer monitor will be facing me when it turns into a strobe light during my expected rem cycles. I think this is the missing key I have been looking for. Thanks again. smile

#123:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005
    ----
Cool! Let me know how it works out for you. I am curious to see if this works for anyone else.

#124:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005
    ----
As far as I know LaBerge and the Lucidity Institute were working on developing the new Nova Dreamer with Bruce, but the deal fell through and Bruce went solo......I wonder why that happened ^^

#125:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Thu 04 Aug, 2005
    ----
As far as I knopw, Bruce just likes to lie a lot. I remember somehting about this on the lucidity institute forum, I think. IIRC TLI was considering a distribution deal with Bruce, and nothing more. Bruce exagerrates to make himself sound better.

This part I'm not sure of, but just recently in an email Bruce claimed he was workign with stephen on something for the future NOW, and I mailed TLI and they said they weren't. Apparently Bruce met stephen, gave him a Dream Maker, and MIGHT be exchanging emails of some sort; and to him this means "I am in communication with Dr Stephen Laberge of Lucidity Institute and we will be doing something together shortly."

The man takes wishful thinking to a whole new level, at least.

I've been "in communication" with him for a while though, and if he isn't an outright "Bad Man Trying to Screw Me," he is at the very LEAST a "Not Very Good Businessman."

And if he doesn't become at least a slightly better businessman very soon, he won't have much of a business left.

#126:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2005
    ----
I sent the lucidity institute an e mail as well. I will also talk to Dr. Labarge directly. I think with everyone contacting him about Bruce it is very unlikely that he will involve the lucidity institute with such a disgraceful business person.

With all the people who have posted here I think Bruce is far more than just a bad business person. I will tell you that I would never buy any of his products.

#127:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Sat 06 Aug, 2005
    ----
milod789 wrote:
I sent the lucidity institute an e mail as well. I will also talk to Dr. Labarge directly. I think with everyone contacting him about Bruce it is very unlikely that he will involve the lucidity institute with such a disgraceful business person.

With all the people who have posted here I think Bruce is far more than just a bad business person. I will tell you that I would never buy any of his products.


Wish I'd come to this thread before I did, that's for sure... I won't spare efforts making sure he doesn't screw anyone again, that's for sure... as of today, I'm done just asking him for my money back.

#128:  Author: buddy PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug, 2005
    ----
sushupti what steps do you plan to take now?

i don't know how bruce can sleep at night. im sure he will get whats coming.

#129:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2005
    ----
Well just out of curiosity I took a second and visited lucidity.com. In their forum they also have people complaining about wellness tools.

Anyway, I hope you people who were defrauded by Bruce really go after him. I don’t know how he can sleep at night either.

On another note- The rem-dreamer might be ok. It seems that they do have a problem with shipping, so expect a long delay if you order one. In the forums I have read no one has posted how well it worked so I guess we will have to wait to see.

BTW- Someone at Lucidity.com had the same idea as mine about the strobe light. I hope it works for people.

#130:  Author: Sushupti PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2005
    ----
The people who make the VibraLite3, Global Assistive something, have an alarm clock with bed vibrator, and strobe light options... they make these things for deaf people, but no reason we shouldn't have fun with them, too smile

As for how I'll go after bruce; nothing special, just the regular legal stuff... I filed a complaint with paypal, I'll see how that works out. If it doesn't, I sue him. And if I sue him, for the money, lawyer fees, and try to shut him down so he can't continue screwing people over like that... This will probably involve rounding up others he screwed over for a class action.

#131:  Author: buddy PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2005
    ----
Sushupti any news?

thanks

#132:  Author: Reyth PostPosted: Mon 02 Jan, 2006
    ----
lucidboy wrote:
A better way will be make a deal with your dog so when you enter REM he will pee in your face so you can become wet lucid. neutral


LMAO

(I apologize for this post, I wrote it before I got to the part about people losing alot of money...

I'm going to leave it here as it kind of describes what this guy is doing to people.

That was one of the most shameful pieces of behavior I have ever witnessed from a business owner. He practically turned into a child right infront of us. Very scary.)

#133:  Author: big ben PostPosted: Tue 21 Feb, 2006
    ----
http://www.novadreamer.com/discus/messages/249/245.ht ml?1116452388

#134:  Author: Sepultura123 PostPosted: Wed 22 Feb, 2006
    ----
You're talking about Robert Bruce ? The famous astral projector ?

What does he have done to have such a bad reputation ?

I dont know a lot about famous people related to dream.

#135:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2006
    ----
Sepultura123 wrote:
You're talking about Robert Bruce ? The famous astral projector ?

What does he have done to have such a bad reputation ?

I dont know a lot about famous people related to dream.


No people are talking about Bruce Gelerter of Wellnes Tools.

What has he done to get a bad reputation? Well, read the thread and draw your own conclusions.

#136:  Author: bass lord PostPosted: Sun 05 Mar, 2006
    ----
Does this technology make the traditional WILD and MILD techniques obsolete or are they to be used toghether?

#137:  Author: milod789 PostPosted: Sun 05 Mar, 2006
    ----
bass lord wrote:
Does this technology make the traditional WILD and MILD techniques obsolete or are they to be used toghether?


No, the Nova Dreamer (and nova dreamer clones) would not make MILD or WILD obsolete.

While some of these types of devices might help you if you are new or an experienced lucid dreamer recovering from a dry spell, lots of people seem to report that the devises are not effective in the long term. After a while your brain gets used to the external stimuli and stops sending the cues into your dreams. So to continue having lucid dreams on a regular basis you would still have to learn a self induction technique. Moreover, these are not virtual reality machines that automatically give you lucid dreams. You still have to train yourself to recognize the clues the device sends you.

#138:  Author: Sepultura123 PostPosted: Sun 05 Mar, 2006
    ----
So stop the machine and start with a clean and simple way. You will have better result at the end then with so many wasting technique.

#139:  Author: Down Ander PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar, 2006
    ----
Sounds very interesting I'll read the whole topic later first I go and sleep.I changed my Day and Night Rythim and since I done that I dream a lot more maybe it can help you if you don't have work or a job that doesn't allow that.

greetings Down Ander

#140: NOVA pro? electronic devices>? Author: lucidfl0 PostPosted: Thu 27 Apr, 2006
    ----
<mod>Direct links towards vendors are not permitted according to the forum rules. Link towards Dreammaker suppressed. Then I merged this post about Dreammaker device into the existing BIG Dreammaker topic.</mod>

I saw here a movie about electric devices did some one evry try this?
Did some one read about this, hear about this, have any more information?

#141: k Author: lucidfl0 PostPosted: Fri 28 Apr, 2006
    ----
coul't we make one ourselfes with a rats hair and a dead fish?
no of course not omg..
But maby with one of those disco lights what reacts to sound then set this special alarm clock so we get the specials

#142: REM-Dreamer experiences? Action against Bruce Gelerter? Author: macfiddler PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2006
    ----
iadr wrote:
I'd suggest filing a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission here in the U.S. in addition to a personal lawsuit.
http://www.ftc.gov/ftc/consumer.htm
Click on file a complaint and fill out the form. Although they won't work on getting you a refund personally, they will shut this guy down.

Also, if you go to Google and search for Internet Fraud you will find several organizations that will help you in putting some heat on this company.


I paid (and lost) over AU$700 to this bloke (I ordered the pro model over a year ago, and since then e-mails have been ignored and promises made over the phone - yes, I had to phone him from Australia - have been broken, and I don't even have a basic model to be going on with because I didn't want to pay two lots of US$100 postage charges, so I told him to hold off until the pro version was complete, then after a year of being ignored, a phone call produced apologies plus the offer of immediate free postage on a basic model, which never arrived, and the free postage wasn't traceable, so I can't prove he never sent it ... grrrhhh). So, if anyone's planning anything with regard to a group action, count me in, if it means getting money back, or even goods - but not if it means spending more; I can't afford it. I'm in Australia though, which might be an obstacle.

I filed a complaint as suggested above, but as for the money ... well, it's far too late to get it back through AMEX, although my husband is still working with them on it.

As wellnesstools no longer has online cart facilities, I assume Bruce's been blackballed by the cc companies already.

On a lighter note, does anyone have any experience of the Polish offering, the REM-Dreamer, yet? I did read a couple of preliminary good reports when it first came on the market, but my husband is being extremely sceptical about lucid dreaming masks in general in the light of our experience with the American con-artist, so I'd like to have something to counter his prejudice with ... if there is anything...

#143: Re: REM-Dreamer experiences? Action against Bruce Gelerter? Author: milod789 PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2006
    ----
macfiddler wrote:

On a lighter note, does anyone have any experience of the Polish offering, the REM-Dreamer, yet? I did read a couple of preliminary good reports when it first came on the market, but my husband is being extremely sceptical about lucid dreaming masks in general in the light of our experience with the American con-artist, so I'd like to have something to counter his prejudice with ... if there is anything...


Sorry to hear about your experience. I hope you get your money back.

I have not heard any feed back on the polish device at all so I do not know what to tell you there.

If you want to save some $$$ then just get a strobe light and a timer(from k-mart or similar store). The timer plugs into the wall and then you plug the strobe light into the timer. You set the timer to go off at various times in the night like every 90 minutes or something like that. You will have to play with it a lot to get the timing right (to go off when you are in REM sleep). But you will save yourself lots of money.

#144:  Author: Enamored_Spirit PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2006
    ----
isn't this topic a bit outdated? hello milod, good to see you.



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