Is lucid a sin?-Part II
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#16:  Author: mike_dpw PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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"God is not fake, Mike. Yes, it is possible to know the truth because Jesus is the truth Himself. You can get to know Him personally, after you get to discover Him in creation etc.. (takes time, no doubt)"

Uh. .. and how do you know jesus is the truth himself? you didn't support your point very well.

anyway, I think that technically lucid dreaming would be considered a minor sin (I don't remember the actual name for it, it's NOT a mortal sin). well, that depends on what you do in that dream really. It's not lucid dr eaming itself, it's what takes place in that dream that matters. But I will state again that you should not put yourself in hell now to get into heaven later, as it would suck if your life was a waste and there was no heaven, you just. . . no longer exist.

On the other hand, I don't think god, if he did exist, could send you to hell for just understanding that you can't know for sure what the truth is, just as long as you have a general respect for whatever may have created the world.

and I just have to bring this up. If god exists, why do we exist? did he get bored and decide to make a large group of people so he could say "you get into heaven, you go to hell" etc? big power trip? and also, how could god possibly fairly judge people?

what happens to all of the non judeo-christian people, do they go to hell? Are people either good or evil at birth? if not, wouldn't that be based on life experiences that they can't control? And, if people ARE good or evil at birth. . . they don't have a chance, and didn't god create them? So really, god just said "eh I'll make one who goes to hell" then an evil baby was born.

We also know that the bible can't be taken literally (anyone who believes otherwise is just plain ignorant, we have already figured out the sun does not revolve around the earth). So how much of the bible CAN you believe? Perhaps it's all just a big metaphor, god being nature. . . or something. Or maybe it's just a giant work of fiction. If you claim you know. . . you are just simply wrong. You were not there when the world was created, YOU DON'T KNOW. So anyway, don't kiss god's *** to get into heaven.


good christ I typed a lot.

#17:  Author: moogle PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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You typed a lot and you also took the Lord's name in vain when you swore.
Personally I take all the 4 Gospels as 98% truth (that's allowing for errors in memory when they were compiled). A lot of the questions you asked have already been talked about in other topics on this site. If you can spare 2 hours...."the forum will discuss their views on spiritual life" in the lucid lounge has a more or less 2 sided debate on it.

#18:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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AstareGod wrote:
Well, I believe that there is no hell, there is only heaven, and heaven is a state of mind (very much like dreaming) and that we all can get to heaven whenever we want... well, if this is the case, I don't believe dreaming can be a sin at all.


You'd have to die to get to heaven because even Jesus said it's a place - He said it has many mansions. So the way I see it is that it isn't a state of mind at all.

#19:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Nazca wrote:
Basically:
If you really feel like your God would consider it a sin to dream, then okay then. However, I think that if the Christian god does exist, he probably wouldn't make stupid rules against lucid dreaming - especially because, it's said that around 10% of the world has lucid dreams every night naturally, and that's kind of silly.


Who actually said that? Not me. Jesus said thinking about a woman was the same as adultery. So he made a rule about thinking which might include lucid dreaming when it involves sex. Unless the fact that it's not really a woman, you're thinking about sex with a thought process!

#20:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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mike_dpw wrote:
Uh. .. and how do you know jesus is the truth himself? you didn't support your point very well.


I didn't know I had to support my point for you to start swearing.

I had some experiences with God which you haven't had. Can that be
more clear, then?

mike_dpw wrote:
and I just have to bring this up. If god exists, why do we exist? did he get bored and decide to make a large group of people so he could say "you get into heaven, you go to hell" etc? big power trip? and also, how could god possibly fairly judge people?


He's God, He is love, so He created people to love Him and for Him to love them. No big power trip at all. He can fairly judge people because He is love, He knows all about me and you and our intentions. He can read the heart.

He doesn't tell you to go to hell. I go to hell if I choose to stay away from Him. Easy.

mike_dpw wrote:
what happens to all of the non judeo-christian people, do they go to hell? Are people either good or evil at birth? if not, wouldn't that be based on life experiences that they can't control? And, if people ARE good or evil at birth. . . they don't have a chance, and didn't god create them? So really, god just said "eh I'll make one who goes to hell" then an evil baby was born.


God gave us free will. Freedom to choose Him or reject Him. People who don't know Him, but are still essentially good will go to purgatory, I believe.
No, people are neither good or evil at birth. They choose during their life.

mike_dpw wrote:
We also know that the bible can't be taken literally (anyone who believes otherwise is just plain ignorant, we have already figured out the sun does not revolve around the earth). So how much of the bible CAN you believe? Perhaps it's all just a big metaphor, god being nature. . . or something. Or maybe it's just a giant work of fiction. If you claim you know. . . you are just simply wrong. You were not there when the world was created, YOU DON'T KNOW.


First of all swearing does not help your point. The Bible is written in various formats. There are literal accounts and there is even fictional stories (Susanna for instance). There are parts which are very much to be taken literally eg. when Jesus said 'this is my body'. He never said it of a rock but He said it about the Eucharist. There are other parts which are symbolic.
Genesis is written using a Jewish style of writing which basically shows us what God plans to create, not the actual order and time taken. I do know that. And the message of Genesis is that God loves us and that's why He created us. YES I KNOW THAT.

I don't need to be there when the world was created. I've experienced God and His love for me, me a sinner with weaknesses.

Note: I think we've gone very much off topic now. I'm really sorry that this happened. I think we all understand that different people on the board will have different viewpoints on life especially these matters. So we cannot expect everyone to reason in the same way like ourselves but we should respect them instead.

#21:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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I spoke with a priest on the subject of sin and LD's. It seems that my thought, or my original one at least, that in an LD masturbation and sex are the equivalent of bad thoughts was correct i.e. they are sinful thoughts and of course should I do them in an LD (I will try not to!) I will need to go to confession.

It took me some time to explain what LD's were, but I managed to explain it pretty well that he was able to understand it.

Just to be sure that nobody misunderstands - I'm not saying ALL LD's are sins. I'm saying what you do within an LD can be the equivalent of a conscious thought - so if you 'do' something which would be sinful, then that's a sinful thought...

#22:  Author: sage PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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clarkkent wrote:
I spoke with a priest on the subject of sin and LD's. It seems that my thought, or my original one at least, that in an LD masturbation and sex are the equivalent of bad thoughts was correct i.e. they are sinful thoughts and of course should I do them in an LD (I will try not to!) I will need to go to confession.


Just remember, the word/opinion of a priest doesn't mean it's the word/opinion of God. The priest is just another man. A lot of things you have to decide for yourself. Priests may be good as guides, but they can still be wrong. I don't see how sex in an LD could be considered bad. Oh well. smile

#23:  Author: R3P7i PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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LDs themselves aren't sin, it's just like any other dream except you know you're dreaming. And dreams aren't evil, I don't think.

What you DO in the dream is another thing entirely. Would God see it as just a though, or an action? I don't know, and it's best you decide that for yourself. If you're worried about it, just play safe. There are plenty of non-sinful things to do in LDs.

This topic has a lot of posts about God existing or whatever, take that to another topic. If you don't believe in God, you have no advice to give in this situation.

#24:  Author: Minako PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Only actually doing bad things for real is a sin! Whatever these 'bad things' are... BUT: bad thoughts are not sins... bad dreams are not sins... doing bad things in LDs is not a sin...
And if these priests don't agree with me, they can all kiss my... *ahem*

Seriously Clark, would you really go to confession for having sex in your dreams?
Imagine it, you go to confession and the priest says:
"What are your sins, child?"
And you say:
"I had sex in my lucid dreams!"
And the priest goes:
"In your what?"
...
No way... even if I go to confession I wouldn't mention sex in LDs cause it's not a sin and it's none of their business!

#25:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Minako wrote:
Only actually doing bad things for real is a sin! Whatever these 'bad things' are... BUT: bad thoughts are not sins... bad dreams are not sins... doing bad things in LDs is not a sin...


Normal bad dreams are not sins because you don't control them....
If you control a dream, your consciousness is active, then the matter is different in my opinion.

Minako wrote:
And if these priests don't agree with me, they can all kiss my... *ahem*


I was only talking about myself. I never said anything about forcing anyone to do or think anything.

Minako wrote:
Seriously Clark, would you really go to confession for having sex in your dreams?
Imagine it, you go to confession and the priest says:
"What are your sins, child?"
And you say:
"I had sex in my lucid dreams!"
And the priest goes:
"In your what?"


Of course I would. And he would know what they are, because I explained in detail about them.

Minako wrote:
No way... even if I go to confession I wouldn't mention sex in LDs cause it's not a sin and it's none of their business!


You're right that it's your business what you do and what you mention. Like it's my business what I do and what I mention, when I go to confession.

#26:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Minako - don't feel offended. My post/s on this topic were
not intended to be 'forcing' anyone.

I am only think of myself in this respect.

#27:  Author: Shaper PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Clarkent, maybe this goes off topic a bit, but wouldn't you feel controlled by having to go and confess for something you did in a dream that quite frankly is the one of the farthest things from 'sinful' there could be? (I'm talking about dream sex by the way.)

#28:  Author: Minako PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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... ClakKent! I wasn't talking about you! I was talking about the stupid priests! The only part that was ment for you, was where I asked you if you'd really go to a confession for having sex in your dreams. And I'm not offended or angry with you! Cause this isn't about you anyway. You go to a confession if you want to, I won't!
I think all the priests around here would say the same thing like your priest said. I don't at all agree with them! I don't even think sex in RL is a sin, why would it be anyway? So sex in my dreams or anythign else I do in my dream, lucid or not, is not a sin! I don't care even if the pope says it is... I think this is all stupid!
I know you're just expressing your opinion, Clark, so am I!

#29:  Author: clarkkent PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2003
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Josh Redstone wrote:
Clarkent, maybe this goes off topic a bit, but wouldn't you feel controlled by having to go and confess for something you did in a dream that quite frankly is the one of the farthest things from 'sinful' there could be? (I'm talking about dream sex by the way.)


No, it would be my choice. I would check my conscience.

#30:  Author: mike_dpw PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2003
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Oh this is difficult to explain, but I'll do my best. . .
Ok now what I was trying to say is that god cannot fairly judge you based on this free will you have. Free will lets you choose for yourself, and your decisions must be based on something. They can be based on your past life experiences. Or, they could be completely random. But bottom line, there is a force behind the decision. IN general, the way one acts can pretty much be blamed on genetics and everything in life up to that point. We KNOW that genetics can make you a nice person, or a trouble maker, or whatever. AND we know that kids who grow up in a stable home with good parents, and an ok social life don't go on shooting rampages.

If you don't believe this, then fine. What does cause you to makea certain decision? The only other ways are that you choose completely randomly, or you were simply born with a predisposition to make such decisions (born good or evil). So, god can A. Judge you based on your past life experiences and genetics, both of which you did not control. Or, he can B. make you born good or evil. Over this you have no control. Either way, you're not REALLY making your own decisions

I will probalby seem an *** for this, but those who do not speak their mind for fear of ridicule are pathetic. if you're gonna argue this, please give an actual argument and not just meaningless filler like "we have souls and god loves us so we can make our own decisions". That sounds pretty an all, but does not address what I've said, just mentions some nice sounding things about god and love. Thats what I find most christians do when defending their faith. "Oh I know god is real becaus I feel him in my heart" that is about the most vague and meaningless sentence I've ever heard, and I hear it quiet a bit. just reply with a logical argument, I'm sure as hell not saying you can't include god in that argument and stuff, but please have what you say mean something.

Clarkkent - I really hope you sit down and do some serious thinking. It seems as though you (like many, many other people) simply accept what they were tought by their parents and church as fact, and don't question it at all. And I know that is not easy to do, these things are ingrained deep in your brain, and it's hard to even consider they might not be correct. If you were to do this, and you still thought that god is the most logical explanation. . .then thats fine. But I don't think you have, you have just accepted it without question.

Oh and by the way, cursing is not a sin. so eat me.



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