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Why God was so vengeful in the OT - Part II

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Freecube
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PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Josh, a hindu or buddhist wouldnt necessarily agree with a Christian statement, so he may try and disprove it without disproving atheinism, so technically he would be a biased source of information too.

And you didnt answer my question, is believing the truth biased?


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Shaper
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PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Freecube wrote:
Josh, a hindu or buddhist wouldnt necessarily agree with a Christian statement, so he may try and disprove it without disproving atheinism, so technically he would be a biased source of information too.


We've already gone over this...according to what we've been talking about, every source of study is biased, regardless of whther it is the truth or not.

Freecube wrote:

And you didnt answer my question, is believing the truth biased?


I would say yes, it is biased towards the truth, but since it's the truth, thats okay.
However, we're talking about Christianity here, which is not a truth, it is a belief system which some believe is the truth.
So the issue here is not whether believing in the truth is or isn't biased, it's whether or not what you believe in is the truth or not.


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Mindful
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Freecube, I never intended to mean that Christianity states God is temporary.
I agree with Your statement regarding Christ, Christ Is Was and Forever Shall Be, creation is merely a word and remember We are speaking in terms of eternity, anything that God creates would be created in eternity, meaning that anything True Is, Was and Forever Will Be.
Perhaps the statement Christ is an extension of God, an aspect of God, will be more acceptable to You?
You are a Child of God?
Is not Christ the Child of God?
Meaning that in fact You are Christ, whom is the Son of God and will be forever more.
Praise and worship, why would God want praise and worship, only Ego desires such things, is God an egotistical God also.
If God is Love than why would He wish for anything other than Love. You will reap what You sow.
Praise and worship are not of Love because they imply inequality.
If God is Love God would only bestow Love meaning God would recieve only Love in return and nothing else.Love Knows nothing but Love because in the eyes of Love, Love is all there Is.
May I ask what fault You find in other religions and why You see no fault in Yours.
I have no opinions on faults, but I will choose only Love, because like You said what more is there to want (have)
than God, for Me to choose only Love means I must cast away all notions of punishment, sacrafice, inequality..........
Love does not punish, does not sacrafice, does not see inequality, keeps no record of wrongs.
Love Loves, what else would Love do?


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Cyrus
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Freecube wrote:

I believe what I believe because I have found it to be the truth, the only truth, and the only truth that has no faults.


I agree that the truth has no faults. How much do YOU know about the truth?

I can look at a specific tree, and no doubt about that: it's a tree, not a frog. But how much do i know about this tree? Have i noticed ALL details about the tree? Or (as usual) have i payed attention to only some details (selective vision), while (un)intentionally ignoring some other details.



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mystic
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Freecube wrote:
I believe what I believe because I have found it to be the truth, the only truth, and the only truth that has no faults.


That's your truth. Doesn't mean it's wrong ofcourse, but how could there be a truly universal truth if its perception depends on the context through which you realize this truth, meaning your cultural, social and personal environment? Everyone has their own relative truth.. doesn't mean their all equal (as postmodernism suggests), but the journey towards higher truths is a personal matter, and only through growth, ups & downs and learning can one attain new deeper insights towards deeper truths. At nearly every point we seem to think "ah NOW I know The Truth, and the Only Truth. Nothing can convince me now otherwise." Doesn't make any sense to me... you're never finished with learning in life and learning implies shifts in consciousness at every moment of your life, no matter how subtle they are. What's the purpose of life if at some point the learning process truly stops?

It's all too easy to project your own truths to the world and proclaim they're the Only Truths. That's egocentrism at its best and actually this can also be found in very young children who's ego is still so much centralized that they seem to think that the world is an extension of their own ego; they can't yet put themselves in someone else's position and therefore the child believes that whatever it does or thinks must be what the world thinks. Its own truths are the truths of the world.
It's not quite the same ofcourse but it's related smile


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Cyrus
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PostPosted: Tue 17 May, 2005  Reply with quote

My wife reads to me Terry Pratchett's "Little Gods" atm (we use to read to each other books what other side probably would not read in his/her own). It's incredibly stupid book. I mean not that the author is stupid, or the idea is stupid, but the people in it are charicatured(?) incredibly stupid. Every time she reads it to me i feel how similarly stupid it is to think that someones (little piece of) truth is the only truth there is and everyone who does not share it are living in error and are gonna be punished by the incredibly stupid god(s) in those exclusivist religions.

Until we don't realize that our worldview and belief-system is only a small part of the "whole truth" we are no better than those idiots in this Pratchett's book.



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Enamored_Spirit
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

I can't believe I'm arguing against my own religion, but such is the pursuit of truth: @ Freecube(or anyone else), I've been thinking, and it just doesn't seem to make sense. How does Christ's blood make us sinless? If my friend has done something wrong and will have to be punished, I cannot substitute myself, it doesn't work that way. So how does Christ dying on the cross, protect me? I know the response will be 'Christ's blood is so great that it can cover the sins of everyone...' and so on and so on, but my question is not of Christ's greatness. It's of a system that would allow this to work. Another thing I've been thinking, is as Newbie(Mindful) said, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The Bible talks about God's existence being made known through His works(nature and so on), so if I look at a flower or human expression, and take that as an evidence of a loving, beautiful God is that not the same as if anyone else sees these things and comes to the same conclusion? Think about it this way, Paul says that it as if we see things(of God or spiritual nature) through a dark glass. Some may hold a darker glass, but are not their eyes fixed on the same thing? Another example: Say you've got some gold, but it's got some impurities in it. Someone else's gold may hold more impurities, but it's still gold, it's still got elements of "truth". What I'm not saying is that all things are the same(like a universiality kind of belief), some do not search the gold at all and have nothing but impurities, and some are happy to stick with their imperfect gold instead of finding something pure.

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Enamored_Spirit
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Josh Redstone wrote:

However, we're talking about Christianity here, which is not a truth, it is a belief system which some believe is the truth.
So the issue here is not whether believing in the truth is or isn't biased, it's whether or not what you believe in is the truth or not.

Therein lies the real question.




Last edited by Enamored_Spirit on Wed 18 May, 2005; edited 4 times in total
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Enamored_Spirit
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Mindful wrote:

Praise and worship, why would God want praise and worship, only Ego desires such things, is God an egotistical God also.

We've actually been studying worship in my church. Worship is just the celebration of inward joy, it's essential to the health of your spirit.


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Mindful
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Actually Enamored it was Shakespeare that said that, but thanks for the thought
Are You speaking of Universal Salvation, the concept of Christ's blood covering all, regardless of acceptance? (Sorry didn't really understand where You were going with that)
Do You believe that God's will can be thwarted?
Does the Bible not say that it is Gods will that ALL HIs Children return to Him in the end?
Another way of asking that questions is "Can God Lose?"
If God wishes for the return of all His Children and they do not than God has lost.
The idea of Universal Salvation would answer this question, Christ blood did not merely make it possible for God's Children to be returned, but actually returned them to Him.
Of course there is always the possibility that God's Children never did leave Him, they just thought that they did and the ressurection was Jesus returning God's Children to the Kingdom by showing them that they never really left.
Just a different perspective on the same picture.
The gold analogy is the same as the blind men and the elephant.
Three blind men aproached an elephant (God) and each grabbed a part of the elephant, One grabbed the trunk another a leg and the last the tail.
Each described the elephant by its ear, leg and tail. Of course they all had conflicting views because they only had a small part of the picture.


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Mindful
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

I see worship as reciprocal Joy, Love God while God Loves, sort of thing. I think many though imagine worship to be a sort of "Bow before Me for I AM greater than You" which to unconditional Love would be pointless for in the egoless state of unconditional Love there would nothing to consider itself greater than that which it Loves.
Worship than could easily be replaced by the word Love.


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Enamored_Spirit
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Mindful wrote:
Actually Enamored it was Shakespeare that said that, but thanks for the thought
Of course, I knew that, I was just referencing your earlier post.
Are You speaking of Universal Salvation, the concept of Christ's blood covering all, regardless of acceptance? (Sorry didn't really understand where You were going with that)
Not nesseccarily, because like I said, how does that even work? How does Christ's blood "save" us, whoever it may be.
Do You believe that God's will can be thwarted?
Does the Bible not say that it is Gods will that ALL HIs Children return to Him in the end?
Another way of asking that questions is "Can God Lose?"
If God wishes for the return of all His Children and they do not than God has lost.
Another thing that I've wondered about. But then again, God made a choice, and that was to give us choice, so he knew not all would come to Him. But I don't know, this is still a good point.
The idea of Universal Salvation would answer this question, Christ blood did not merely make it possible for God's Children to be returned, but actually returned them to Him.
Of course there is always the possibility that God's Children never did leave Him, they just thought that they did and the ressurection was Jesus returning God's Children to the Kingdom by showing them that they never really left.
Just a different perspective on the same picture.
The gold analogy is the same as the blind men and the elephant.
Three blind men aproached an elephant (God) and each grabbed a part of the elephant, One grabbed the trunk another a leg and the last the tail.
Each described the elephant by its ear, leg and tail. Of course they all had conflicting views because they only had a small part of the picture.
Right. Though it's possible that some men see more of the picture than others.


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Enamored_Spirit
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Mindful wrote:
I see worship as reciprocal Joy, Love God while God Loves, sort of thing. I think many though imagine worship to be a sort of "Bow before Me for I AM greater than You" which to unconditional Love would be pointless for in the egoless state of unconditional Love there would nothing to consider itself greater than that which it Loves.
Worship than could easily be replaced by the word Love.

I agree. I do think that worship is proper respect to a God who is greater, but that respect is nothing without love.


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Mindful
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Is it possible Jesus never died to save us from our sin but rather our ignorance.
We forgot ourselves to be Children of God, We than believed in pain and death.
Jesus preached of God and of Us as His Children and then showed that pain and death are illusions and Life is eternal.
Blood had nothing to do with it, Love had everything to do with it.
The Truth of Jesus' sacrifice was that He never actually sacrificed anything (hence the ressurection), just as We never sacrificed anything when We forgot God because We are forever with God, since forgetting God was merely an illusion.
Jesus showed how to remember God again.
If You believe God to be Unconditional Love it is quite simple to discern what makes sense and what does not.
The Garden of Eden story appears to be based in Conditional Love.
Children screw up Children get kicked out.
The Prodigal Son story is based in Uncondtional Love.
Son decides to leave, Father gives Him all He is owed and allows Him on His way, Son decides to return thinking His Father will hate Him, the Father has nothing but Love and gladly lets His Son back into the Kingdom without hesitation.
God's choice for His Children to be with choice just as He is is Loving. God gives all God has.
God's decision to punish when that ability to choose is not used in the way He sees fit is Unloving. God punishes what He created for what He created His creations with.
God Loving His Children no matter what is obviously Loving.
God requiring blood sacrifice (slaughter) in order to be with His Children is Unloving.
God created His creations as they are, either God created them perfectly and so sacrifice is not needed, or He created them imperfectly and then punished them for it.
Love in all matters of discernment is sound.
Perhaps the idea of Jesus' blood covering sins does not make sense because the idea of God requiring blood (blood of all things) to make amends does not make sense.
I have said before beliefs bother Me not but I Know Love as Whole and so I will choose only Love.


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Shaper
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PostPosted: Wed 18 May, 2005  Reply with quote

Enamored_Spiri† wrote:
I can't believe I'm arguing against my own religion, but such is the pursuit of truth: @ Freecube(or anyone else), I've been thinking, and it just doesn't seem to make sense. How does Christ's blood make us sinless? If my friend has done something wrong and will have to be punished, I cannot substitute myself, it doesn't work that way. So how does Christ dying on the cross, protect me?


Excatly. The only one responsible for your right or wrong actions is you, and no one else. Actually I think thats a good thing. If more people realised this, I think we'd have a lot more nice people in this world.

Mindful wrote:

Is it possible Jesus never died to save us from our sin but rather our ignorance.


Remember that at the time, Jesus' death was mostly political lachgroen


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