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Freecube
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Prophecies?
PostPosted: Fri 21 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

<mod>This topic was split from 'Is the Christian God Real?' topic, because it's no longer about the original topic yinyang</mod>

XLonewolfX wrote:

Btw, since u guys were talking about WWII, did you know that the bible prophesized WWI and WWII?



where did the bible prophesy ww1 and 2? Im christian but I've never heard of that.


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XLonewolfX
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Ok well the bible mentions the "Last days" of this present system of things and from the bible it is shown that this started in 1914 when WWI broke out.
Matthew 24:
“Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
...YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."
This nation against nation can only refer to World War That was a very significant time because the world really changed after that. (Before WW1 the world was relatively safe) In 1914 the first WORLD war was fought so it was indeed nation against nation.

Luke 21 mentions the last days and says in vs 11: "In one place after another pestilences..."

At the close of world war II the spanish influenza flu swept around the globe and it was said that it killed more people than the world wars put together. Also besides that there is of course the heavy toll exacted every year by cancer, heart disease, STDs, multiple sclerosis, malaria, and so forth.

Matthew 24:11,12: 'Increased lawlessness accompanied by a cooling off of love on the part of the greater number'

Statistics indeed show that crime has been on an increase.

Luke 21:25,26: "Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inahbited earth"

And let me just put the words from this magazine: "The fact is that today the biggest single emotion which dominates our lives is fear," said U.S. News & World Report. (October 11, 1965, p. 144) "Never before has mankind been as fearful as present."


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Amused Himself to Death
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

I used to have a friend. At one point in the friendship, he found out I was religous, Christian. And so, every once and awhile, we would argue about Religion and such. Usually in the arguments he would call me stupid for believing "all of that crap". I stopped talking to him after awhile, and around a year later, I found out he raped his cousin. And whilst in no way am I saying that all athiests rape their cousins, I just always found that story particularily funny. I have a wierd sense of humor though, so whatever.

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Bruno
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Amused Himself to Death wrote:
I used to have a friend. At one point in the friendship, he found out I was religous, Christian. And so, every once and awhile, we would argue about Religion and such. Usually in the arguments he would call me stupid for believing "all of that crap". I stopped talking to him after awhile, and around a year later, I found out he raped his cousin. And whilst in no way am I saying that all athiests rape their cousins, I just always found that story particularily funny. I have a wierd sense of humor though, so whatever.

Yeah, especially since you also probably heard stories about priests raping kids, right?

And that, my friends, is why using examples to prove theories is considered a logical fallacy smile


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

XLonewolfX wrote:
Ok well the bible mentions the "Last days" of this present system of things and from the bible it is shown that this started in 1914 when WWI broke out.
Matthew 24:
“Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
...YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress."
This nation against nation can only refer to World War That was a very significant time because the world really changed after that. (Before WW1 the world was relatively safe) In 1914 the first WORLD war was fought so it was indeed nation against nation.

Luke 21 mentions the last days and says in vs 11: "In one place after another pestilences..."


Those verses are only saying that there will be war. No sh*t there will be war, people fight, that is a fact of life. If I said,
"Two nations will rise against each other, and create a great strife,"
and then a year or so later a(nother) war happened, would you hail me as a prophet? And of course there will be food shortages and earthquakes. Saying that war, earthquakes, and food shortages will happen is like saying "tomorrow the sun will rise." Of course the sun will rise, and of course there will be war, earthquakes, and food shortages. They are facts of life. Predicting facts of life is no prophecy.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

BTW, welcome to the forum, lonewolf. Happy to have you.
welcome


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XLonewolfX
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Yes I understand it seems like there have always been wars but actualy in the past it was not kingdom against kingdom. But did you know that the book of Daniel predicts all the kingdoms that would come on the world scene? It is in Daniel ch. 2 vs. 36-45. It talks about it more through the last chapters to about WW1 and WW2. You can get a book that explains clearly Daniel's prophecy for free at http://watchtower.org/publications/publications_avail able.htm (You have to write to them). I just put this because I strongly reccomend you read this book explaining this prophecy if you dont believe it. Apart from that, the bible also prophesized the exact date-1914 when WW1 began. Let me put a chart, it might be bunched up:

Calculating the "seven times"
"seven times" = 7 x 360 = 2,520 years
A biblical "time" or year= 12x30 days=360.(rev. 11:2,3;12:6,14)
in the fulfillment of the "seven times" each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.C., to December 31, 607 B.C.E = 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E to December 31, 1 B.C.E = 606 years
January 1, 1C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
And 2,520 years from 607 B.C.E brings us to 1914 C.E(WW1)

(And you can check the scriptures in parenthesis)


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
Amused Himself to Death wrote:
I used to have a friend. At one point in the friendship, he found out I was religous, Christian. And so, every once and awhile, we would argue about Religion and such. Usually in the arguments he would call me stupid for believing "all of that crap". I stopped talking to him after awhile, and around a year later, I found out he raped his cousin. And whilst in no way am I saying that all athiests rape their cousins, I just always found that story particularily funny. I have a wierd sense of humor though, so whatever.

Yeah, especially since you also probably heard stories about priests raping kids, right?

And that, my friends, is why using examples to prove theories is considered a logical fallacy smile


IMO, the Catholic messed everything up (faith ways and using God as an excuse for every war they started or mistakes they made). The Protestants messed up by dividing into so many differnt groups of Christianity which causes much confusing. I am a Christian and just because some says they are Christian doesn't mean they truly are. The same applies for priests. I really don't understand why Catholic priest can't marry. It doesn't say anywhere in the bible about that.


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Shaper
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

XLonewolfX wrote:
Yes I understand it seems like there have always been wars but actualy in the past it was not kingdom against kingdom. But did you know that the book of Daniel predicts all the kingdoms that would come on the world scene? It is in Daniel ch. 2 vs. 36-45. It talks about it more through the last chapters to about WW1 and WW2. You can get a book that explains clearly Daniel's prophecy for free at http://watchtower.org/publications/publications_avail able.htm (You have to write to them). I just put this because I strongly reccomend you read this book explaining this prophecy if you dont believe it. Apart from that, the bible also prophesized the exact date-1914 when WW1 began. Let me put a chart, it might be bunched up:

Calculating the "seven times"
"seven times" = 7 x 360 = 2,520 years
A biblical "time" or year= 12x30 days=360.(rev. 11:2,3;12:6,14)
in the fulfillment of the "seven times" each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.C., to December 31, 607 B.C.E = 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E to December 31, 1 B.C.E = 606 years
January 1, 1C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
And 2,520 years from 607 B.C.E brings us to 1914 C.E(WW1)

(And you can check the scriptures in parenthesis)


Think about this; if I wanted to prophecize someting like WWI, why not just warn people to look out for a tyrannical leader, over-industrialization, etc, rather than create a complex extrapolation of dates and numbers which end up giving you a date in the future where something might happen on a calender which at the time was not used widely and which they may not have known was even going to be used the world over anyway?

The problem I have with prophecies is that they never seem to point to anything of significance within the event they claim to predict. Take WWI for instance. 'Waring Kingdoms', well, yeah, like DayLight said, that stuff has always happened. Why not aim to teach people why these things happen instead, so that we can learn from history and prevent them in the future.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Whenever I point out a story or verse in the Bible that contains some disqusting violent act or a sex act that most christians frown upon, their awnser is always "oh, you took that verse out of context". That is what they say, every time, without fail. But half of their prophecies are verses taken out of context.

P.S. I have heard some people here saying things about people who say they are Christian, but do something like rape or murder. They have said that no matter what these people say, they are not followers of Christ. Well, [removed] How can you judge a person like that? Does your god not say "do not judge"? It is beyond me how one can be so arrogant as to say a person is not a Christian based solely on what history books have told you about them. thumbs down

<mod>Watch your language, Dan. There's no need for flamming. oh maan</mod>


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XLonewolfX
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

[quote="Josh Redstone
Think about this; if I wanted to prophecize someting like WWI, why not just warn people to look out for a tyrannical leader, over-industrialization, etc, rather than create a complex extrapolation of dates and numbers which end up giving you a date in the future where something might happen on a calender which at the time was not used widely and which they may not have known was even going to be used the world over anyway?

The problem I have with prophecies is that they never seem to point to anything of significance within the event they claim to predict. Take WWI for instance. 'Waring Kingdoms', well, yeah, like DayLight said, that stuff has always happened. Why not aim to teach people why these things happen instead, so that we can learn from history and prevent them in the future.[/quote]

The reason the bible doesn't stright out tell you like what you just mentioned is because the Bible is like a puzzle. The truth is not just laid out for you, you have to search for it.

Proverbs 2:4 says: if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it

John 5:38: “YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

1 Corin. 2:7: But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. This [wisdom] not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know..."

Matthew 7:14 says: whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

These scriptures just prove that it indeed takes effort to understand the bible.

Also I think its interesting how you said that ppl at that time
(about the calendar) would not be able to understand. Daniel, who was inspired by God to write these things down, did not understand what he was writing. He said that himself. He wrote them down but could not understand it.

Daniel 12:8-9: Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. (So the angel mentioned that this was for the ppl in the future to know, and not him)

Secondly, about their always being wars, there have never been a war like the World wars. These was not merely a conflict between two armies on the battlefield. For the first time, all the major powers were at war. It is estimated that by the end of the war 93 percent of the population of the world was involved. And as foretold ar Revelation 6:4, "peace was taken away from the earth." (If you ask anyone who lived before WW1 they will tell you that the world used to be relatively safe until 1914).

It is not merely the fact that there have been wars, famines, earthquakes, and crime that is significant. Jesus's sign that he gave was a composite one. The entire sign was in evidence and on a global scale begginning with a year marked by Bible chronology. If you talk to historians they all will explain that something indeed was drastically different about the 20th century.

And now what you said about teaching people why these things happen and learning from history to prevent them in the future instead--but the truth is, the bible does say this too. The bible states why this happened and shows how these things things will all end in the future as well.


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:
Whenever I point out a story or verse in the Bible that contains some disqusting violent act or a sex act that most christians frown upon, their awnser is always "oh, you took that verse out of context". That is what they say, every time, without fail. But half of their prophecies are verses taken out of context.

P.S. I have heard some people here saying things about people who say they are Christian, but do something like rape or murder. They have said that no matter what these people say, they are not followers of Christ. Well, [removed] How can you judge a person like that? Does your god not say "do not judge"? It is beyond me how one can be so arrogant as to say a person is not a Christian based solely on what history books have told you about them. thumbs down


Where are such verses, except when in examples of people doing the wrong things? I don't see how context has anything to do with it. What is advocated to be done in the bible is extrodinarily clear, and vice versa against what should not be done.

It's one thing to say you're something for the sole purpose of social status gain, and it's another thing to be that thing yet to make mistakes and mess up. There's an easy way to tell the difference actually on the macro scale, but it is hard when it's only minute things that go on. Destroying the very people you claimed to be apart of, slaying and wiping them out, without a doubt precludes you from being a part of them when it's a matter of ideologies (as all regligion is); unless the ideology in question was to go around and kill everyone else of the same ideology, but then to not go around and kill everyone of that ideology would mean you don't actually belong to or believe in that ideology. So, in all general and practical senses, anyone who claims they were apart of something and then goes around destroying that thing, is not part of that thing but an enemy of it. Someone can call themself your friend all day long while they are stabbing you with a knife, and they certainly would not be your friend no matter how often they spoke the word. Actions are greater than words.

However, I agree completely with Daylight in so far as just because a person does a mistake does not mean they aren't a believer of a particular religion. But becareful! Do not fall into the fallacy of "they made mistake x. They believe in y. Therefore, y must lead to x and be bad!" Just because someone who believes in a certain thing screws up, especially if in respect to that thing, does not mean that thing they believed in in any way was bad, or in any way advocated such an act (unless it did). The bible is against all evil, so for a person who is a Christian to do evil means they are not acting in a Christian manner and are simply screwing up (in regards to Christianity) as all humans, without exception, are prone to do. It has nothing to do with Christianity (Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but their own issues.

Now, nevertheless, anything that teaches, instructs, leads, and reinforces a person towards all that is good and righteous and rational certainly is going to be a powerful modifier on that person's actions. Same for any ideal that teaches a person to be cruel to others or to stomp on others to "get ahead". What does an ideal value and teach? That is what it should be judged by.

Remember at the end of the day, we can judge acts and beliefs and determin if they are good or bad, to be emulated or scorned, but we must never judge the person and must seperate the person from the acts. The person can grow, the person can change, and with love be mended and made stronger than before. People have infinite potential for good, but by nature great potential for evil and mistakes, I think. So, don't beat the sheep in the wolf's mouth, as they say. "Speak evil of no one" as Paul says.

On a technical note, there's all this talking about prophesy and I did list a prophesy that was as clear as you can ever ask for (also remember that phrophesy is limited by terminology. So when John sees a "mountain" falling onto the earth, we know that's an asteroid, a name and concept that the people of the age had absolutely no idea of. Gotta make do with the discriptors and experience you have). Isaiah 44:28-45:13 talks about Cyrus the Persian in 710-681 bc when the guy doesn't come around till 538 bc, as well as details in the prophetic form what he will do, which Cyrus indeed does.

Daylight, you're completely right of course about generalities and the cycles of nations (and human nature) which we know now from history (it could be argued that back then any nation felt like it would last forever, as to a child any pain feels like it'll last forever, as the history and experience with the rise and fall of nations hadn't been built up yet and human civilization was yet in infancy), but many prophesies are quite specific beyond generalities, especially when something is said to never be build again after destruction and isn't (ie Jericho, Tyre [which no one ever thought could be taken until Alexander the Great showed them up, and was later fully destroyed by Muslims, in accordance to that prophesy as well]), and also in the ordering of events. Daniel is a great book for the study of such things, especially because added specificity is gained by multiple layerings of prophesy: the same prophesy told in several different ways and aspects to increase the temporal resolution (or by the use of mathematics; and Daniel's math, the amount of time from the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem to the birth of Christ, was perfectly on the dot).

Basically, if one compares bible prophesies to prophesies of any other sort, such as Nostradamus, you see a markable difference with all the latters being impossibly vauge by comparison. However, such things about the end times are indeed intrinsically vauge generalization to the point that nothing about them can be said, as you say Daylight; yet perhaps that is why there is a multiple layering of such prophesies too so that there is specificity when put together? Hmm... still, how can that truly be seen until the events take place? That's the problem with any sort of specific (or vauge?) prophesy; both the prophet has to try to define something which there is no frame of reference of common context for, and the person reading the prophesy has to try to envision it while facing the exact same problems. It's more of an exersize of hindsight; but the point of it being that one would be expected to have trust in the sayings of someone who is repeatidly correct throughout history, i.e. God, as well as a demonstration of His transciendent power? ("why should you trust this god verses another god? har har har!" etc?)

Ah, fiddlesticks, I'm rambling again about stuff when I should be doing work... erm, or sleeping by now. I'm a sucker for interesting discussions, as it's all such interesting points everyone's bringing out. Alot to think on oh yes.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

I'd like to ask everyone again to keep it cool. Despite it's compelling subject which I'm sure a lot of you are interested in discussing, this thread is highly likely to become a flame war, and if the discussion gets tense again, it will be locked. This is a warning.

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DayLight
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd like to ask everyone again to keep it cool. Despite it's compelling subject which I'm sure a lot of you are interested in discussing, this thread is highly likely to become a flame war, and if the discussion gets tense again, it will be locked. This is a warning.


My bad Bruno.

What about these phrophisies?

Isaiah 17:1 A prophecy of the city of Damascus. It will become "a heap of ruins." But Damascus,
the capital of Syria, thrives today. one of the oldest cities in the world, and has been continuously
inhabited since its founding. It has never been a heap of ruins.

Daniel 9:26 Jerusalem will be destroyed by a flood. No flood has ever destroyed Jerusalem, nor
caused permanent damage.

Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will
be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ
version).


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PostPosted: Mon 24 Apr, 2006  Reply with quote

DayLight wrote:

What about these phrophisies?

Isaiah 17:1 A prophecy of the city of Damascus. It will become "a heap of ruins." But Damascus,
the capital of Syria, thrives today. one of the oldest cities in the world, and has been continuously
inhabited since its founding. It has never been a heap of ruins.

Daniel 9:26 Jerusalem will be destroyed by a flood. No flood has ever destroyed Jerusalem, nor
caused permanent damage.

Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will
be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ
version).


I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate here, and say that it may be possible that non of these things have happened yet. However, I don't believe that if they ever did happen, that it would be because of a biblical prophecy. I think it would probably just be a coincidence.


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