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new WG and VG roles
 
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Mew151
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PostPosted: Tue 30 May, 2017  Reply with quote

I thought of an interesting role.

The Mole (Wolfgame Role)
Is an evil role who works with the wolves but is functionally a villager, meaning they count for villagers in the winning condition and they can even be eaten by the wolves. Their goal is to infiltrate alliances and leak info to wolves as well as cause confusion within the alliance itself. Their special ability allows them to be seen once as a standard villager. If they are seen again by either the seer or some other special ability for that game, their true role is revealed. The wolves don't know who they are at first, but the mole knows all the wolves at the beginning of the game. (Since the idea is that they are a villager who is pleading with the wolves not to eat them if they give them information. ) This adds a tiny bit of uncertainty for the wolves as well. They win when the wolves win.

Gameplay wise, this is just to bring some uncertainty to the alliance. In both WG and VG, being part of the alliance is pretty empowering. In VG, being part of the blessed alliance basically guarantees that you won't be turned or even die. VB shook that up in the last VG by making possible for blessed roles to be turned. In WG, the certainty is more in the roles you know so here is a role meant to add a bit of uncertainty to the seer's alliance. grin



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PostPosted: Tue 30 May, 2017  Reply with quote

Oooh! I like this. I like to disempower alliances and give them a little insecurity ebil

Will this role be announced as this role when they die?


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PostPosted: Tue 30 May, 2017  Reply with quote

Yeah... I was thinking about that. I think that the Mole should be counted as a villager on the "currently alive" stats posted after each day. If they are lynched they should be revealed as the mole and if they are eaten by wolves they simply disappear without any announcement that the mole was killed. This lets the mole's chaos still persist after they are killed and allows the wolf pack to kill the mole in a pinch to ease suspicions.


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PostPosted: Tue 30 May, 2017  Reply with quote

So i can have my who is the mole addiction included in an other addiction! I mean commitment grin cool thought mew, wont it add insecurity to the wolves as well ? How do you meam, wolves dont know each other but mole does. So mole has to PM the wolves to get them totether? (Better not idle then)

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PostPosted: Tue 30 May, 2017  Reply with quote

Wolves know each other as usual, but the wolves don't initially know who the mole is. Mole specifically has to reach out to the wolves to let them know they are the mole. This was mostly just to make a villager teaming up with wolves make more sense "in-universe" but I also thought this fact could be abused by villagers who were insane enough to risk it. tounge2

The mole either needs to know all the wolves or the wolves need to know the mole immediately when the game begins, though, since it'd be too easy for seer to claim they are the mole when they first discover a wolf.



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PostPosted: Wed 31 May, 2017  Reply with quote

Mew151 wrote:
but I also thought this fact could be abused by villagers who were insane enough to risk it. tounge2
I think it's only a risk you can take when mole only knows one wolf. Because otherwise wolf will ask who the others are and it seems highly unlikely you can guess them all correctly. Might be good too, if mole only knows one wolf. Are the wolves trusting this person enough to tell who the other wolves are?

Quote:
The mole either needs to know all the wolves or the wolves need to know the mole immediately when the game begins, though, since it'd be too easy for seer to claim they are the mole when they first discover a wolf.
Yeah but isn't that exciting too! Gives it more insecurity for the wolves as well. Can we trust this person?

Otherwise it might also be too imbalanced in favor of the wolves. Unless more special roles are added or less wolves are among the players cause they have an extra vote so to say.


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PostPosted: Wed 31 May, 2017  Reply with quote

How about this: The Mole only learns of one wolf's identity after Night 1. This gives the seer a chance to mess with the wolves and also presents the possibility of the mole dying before they even team up.

They have to learn of a wolf identity at one point because if the mole is left to find the wolves on their own, the risks of leaking information about the wolves to an "anti-mole" villager outweigh the benefits of having a mole on the wolf team which basically renders the role pointless. Unless the wolves have their own "Dark Inquisitor", but then that just adds another vote for the wolf team.

Also the fun insecurity in the alliance can only occur if the mole is likely to succeed in the first place. If the mole was eaten by wolves on Night 1 but it went unannounced, the villagers would live in fear for the rest of the game even when there was no actual threat. And the wolves would realize a day or two later that they made a big mistake. ebil



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PostPosted: Wed 31 May, 2017  Reply with quote

Mew151 wrote:
Also the fun insecurity in the alliance can only occur if the mole is likely to succeed in the first place. If the mole was eaten by wolves on Night 1 but it went unannounced, the villagers would live in fear for the rest of the game even when there was no actual threat. And the wolves would realize a day or two later that they made a big mistake. ebil
Yes ebil
I'm all in favour for just announcing mole as vill when s/he dies.

And I agree about mole having to know one wolf. After night 1 sounds perfect!


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

Maybe after Night 2 would be better so that the seer has at least one chance to take a second look at someone if they want?

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

Thought of some roles that could mix some games up a bit, most are inspirations from the game I've played. Also, some of these roles might have the same names that you guys have covered.

Serial Killer (Wolfgame/VG)
The Serial killer does not win with either wolves/vamps nor villagers, they win when they are the last person alive.
The Serial killer chooses one person to kill each night, and only the Sourcerer can stop the kill.
The Serial killer cannot be killed at night.

Vampire Hunter (Vampire Game)
The vampire hunter has three stakes, and can choose at night to kill a target with a stake up to three times. If the target is not a vampire, the Vampire Hunter kills them self the next night.

The Hungry Wolf (Wolf Game)
The hungry wolf is extremely hungry, and chooses to consume the wolves' target completely, leaving the role of that player unknown the next day. (Two or three time limit on this would make it more even)

The Paranoid Villager (Wolfgame or VG)
The paranoid villager is armed and crazy. At night the paranoid villager may stay awake and kill anyone who visits them that night. (Seer, Sorc, DI, Wolf, Vamp, etc) (I would limit this to 3 nights max)

The Mayor (WG or VG)
This villager can choose to reveal themselves as the mayor, thus giving them 3 votes during the day. If revealed, the mayor can no longer be protected by the Sorc. Before revealing they are a normal villager.

The Carriage Driver (WG or VG)
This villager chooses to people at night to switch places. Anyone who was targeting player A now targets player B and vice-versa. The Carriage Driver may also carriage themselves. The carriaged targets know they had their places moved.

The False (Wolf) Seer (WG)
This wolf is in tune with the other dimension, they may change a targets role at night so that if the Seer sees that person they appear to be an opposite role.

Arsonist (VG/WG)
Like the Serial Killer, the arsonist wins by being the only player left.
The arsonist each night may choose to douse a player.
At night the arsonist may choose to ignite the dosed players.
Arsonist may not do both actions the same night.

The Grave Robber (WG/VG)
Unlike the Grave Digger stealing for items, the Grave Robber is here to steal your soul (and role! (at night)) The Grave Robber's role turns into the deceased targets role and assumes all victory conditions of that Role. It is announced the next day that a role has returned.

The Stalker (WG & VG)
This Villager may choose a player to watch at night. Any player that visits the target is revealed to the Stalker.

The Novice Detective (WG & VG)
Inspired by the spiritual herbs, this villager targets someone at night and is told x roles that the target could be. (This only works with lots of unique roles in the game or if they can target the same person multiple times and get more information each time).

The Mad Overtaker (VG)
This Overtaker is a little over the top. Unlike the normal Overtaker, this one will kill the previous role owner with no mercy.

The Executioner (WG & VG)
This player is totally neutral, but their win objective is to see their target lynched during the day. They can not be killed at night as the executioner, and if their target dies outside of being lynched, they turn into The Jester (Xander implemented this in the previous WG). The game does not end if the executioner wins.


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

Zagwyn wrote:
Thought of some roles that could mix some games up a bit, most are inspirations from the game I've played. Also, some of these roles might have the same names that you guys have covered.

Serial Killer (Wolfgame/VG)
The Serial killer does not win with either wolves/vamps nor villagers, they win when they are the last person alive.
The Serial killer chooses one person to kill each night, and only the Sourcerer can stop the kill.
The Serial killer cannot be killed at night.


This is is literally impossible since the game will either end when all wolves are dead or when the villager numbers are equal. Besides which is far too powerful to fit in an already swingy game imo.

Zagwyn wrote:
Vampire Hunter (Vampire Game)
The vampire hunter has three stakes, and can choose at night to kill a target with a stake up to three times. If the target is not a vampire, the Vampire Hunter kills them self the next night.
The vampires literally have 4 things that can kill them by the end of night one, I really don't think they need yet another loss condition.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Hungry Wolf (Wolf Game)
The hungry wolf is extremely hungry, and chooses to consume the wolves' target completely, leaving the role of that player unknown the next day. (Two or three time limit on this would make it more even)

I like this one but I think once a day is fine, as with most of these. Not least because the wolves actually WANT to know the role apart from anything.


Zagwyn wrote:
The Paranoid Villager (Wolfgame or VG)
The paranoid villager is armed and crazy. At night the paranoid villager may stay awake and kill anyone who visits them that night. (Seer, Sorc, DI, Wolf, Vamp, etc) (I would limit this to 3 nights max)

I really like this role but again, only once.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Mayor (WG or VG)
This villager can choose to reveal themselves as the mayor, thus giving them 3 votes during the day. If revealed, the mayor can no longer be protected by the Sorc. Before revealing they are a normal villager.

This role already exists however they don't reveal since that's too strong for the villagers again, one less target he evil roles can lynch. Too unfair.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Carriage Driver (WG or VG)
This villager chooses to people at night to switch places. Anyone who was targeting player A now targets player B and vice-versa. The Carriage Driver may also carriage themselves. The carriaged targets know they had their places moved.

I think we already have this role.

Zagwyn wrote:
The False (Wolf) Seer (WG)
This wolf is in tune with the other dimension, they may change a targets role at night so that if the Seer sees that person they appear to be an opposite role.

The porbability of picking the same target as the seer is pretty low. I think it would work better as "if the seer sees this player, their role appears as oppositte" However if they're seen again then it will say theirtrue role.

Zagwyn wrote:
Arsonist (VG/WG)
Like the Serial Killer, the arsonist wins by being the only player left.
The arsonist each night may choose to douse a player.
At night the arsonist may choose to ignite the dosed players.
Arsonist may not do both actions the same night.

Exactly the same reasons as Serial Killer.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Grave Robber (WG/VG)
Unlike the Grave Digger stealing for items, the Grave Robber is here to steal your soul (and role! (at night)) The Grave Robber's role turns into the deceased targets role and assumes all victory conditions of that Role. It is announced the next day that a role has returned.

This would be fine if people didn't KNOW the roles of the deceased, but they do so it's simply too powerful assuming this is a villager. It means that the villagers would get two seers, three priests, three sorcs. They could join the wolf or vampire side but let's be honest the swing is way too strong for the villagers who already win the majority of games.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Stalker (WG & VG)
This Villager may choose a player to watch at night. Any player that visits the target is revealed to the Stalker.

Good role, I think againw e have a similar

Zagwyn wrote:
The Novice Detective (WG & VG)
Inspired by the spiritual herbs, this villager targets someone at night and is told x roles that the target could be. (This only works with lots of unique roles in the game or if they can target the same person multiple times and get more information each time).

You've noted this one pretty well but again I think limiting the ability is better.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Mad Overtaker (VG)
This Overtaker is a little over the top. Unlike the normal Overtaker, this one will kill the previous role owner with no mercy.

Decent.

Zagwyn wrote:
The Executioner (WG & VG)
This player is totally neutral, but their win objective is to see their target lynched during the day. They can not be killed at night as the executioner, and if their target dies outside of being lynched, they turn into The Jester (Xander implemented this in the previous WG). The game does not end if the executioner wins.


I think we have this one as well apart from the jester point.
These roles are fine except for the fact that 80% of them benefit the side that already wins most of the time. Neutral roles are certainly one possibility but if they do hit a wolf then it hurts the wolves far more to lose one of their number than it hurts the vills.

Here's the problem with evil vs good roles as I see it.
Every good role is in a state of "guarentee". The priest WILL either get a permanent ally or find a vamp. The Seer WILL learn your role. The garlic WILL kill you outright. the blessed WILL kill you outright. Mr Popular WILL avoid being lynched and then you know he's innocent and probably insta blessed. I could go on.
Evil roles:
VB MIGHT get turned and then MIGHT die and trigger the buff.
DI MIGHT find the vampires but has done so 1/4 so far.
DP MIGHT debless a blessed target.
hell even the night action MIGHT succeed.

The problem that I'm seeing is the new vill roles get an instant guarenteed effect that they can work with one way or another. But the evil roles that we get are always chance, probability, possibility. If they come together then it's OP as hell but it relies on so much. But the vill roles just work regardless and the evil side is up against it by night one.

Anyway that's my notes on this. Keep coming up with roles.



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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

I like mad overtaker.


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

I don't like having extra chances of dying cause I like to be alive in the game (e.g. mad overtaker, serial killer). Especially, I don't want to increase chances of vamps dying during the night because chances are already quite high vamps will die in the night.

Ebilshrimp wrote:
Here's the problem with evil vs good roles as I see it.
Every good role is in a state of "guarentee". The priest WILL either get a permanent ally or find a vamp. The Seer WILL learn your role. The garlic WILL kill you outright. the blessed WILL kill you outright. Mr Popular WILL avoid being lynched and then you know he's innocent and probably insta blessed. I could go on.
Evil roles:
VB MIGHT get turned and then MIGHT die and trigger the buff.
DI MIGHT find the vampires but has done so 1/4 so far.
DP MIGHT debless a blessed target.
hell even the night action MIGHT succeed.

The problem that I'm seeing is the new vill roles get an instant guarenteed effect that they can work with one way or another. But the evil roles that we get are always chance, probability, possibility. If they come together then it's OP as hell but it relies on so much. But the vill roles just work regardless and the evil side is up against it by night one.
I don't fully agree with this. A seer MIGHT see people who die during the night (or in the vote the day after). Mr. Popular MIGHT be turned making it more difficult to actually vote out the vampire. Sorc MIGHT protect the village successfully. So it's just a matter of perspective. So I think the vill roles don't just work regardless with the evil side up against it.
In fact, because there is a dark inquisitor/VB, regardless of whether they find the vamps, there is one more evil person, meaning that there's actually one less person on the vill side. Even if they don't find each other they're still trying not to get the vamps lynched. (and yes they might be wrong in their suspicions of who is a vamp, just like the villagers). There's still a might involved yes, but there's one more person for the evil side which could sway a vote. (just like the cheater could sway a vote, but that doesn't necessarily mean it actually will...)

As for the imbalance, yes with VG there is some imbalance. I counted the number of times vills/vamps/wolves won for each game, but for WG it is pretty equal. Though, recently vills have won more frequently. This doesn't take into account the different rules we played with though. I probably made a mistake somewhere so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Vampire game
Vills win (17 times): 29, 25, 24, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 14, 13, 12, 11, 9, 7, 3
Vamps win (11 times): 28, 27, 26, 16, 15, 10, 8, 5, 4, 2, 1

Wolfgame
Vills win (27 times): 55, 54, 53, 51, 50, 49, 47, 43, 39, 38, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 27, 25, 24, 20, 19, 18, 14, 13, 10, 9, 7, 3
Wolves win (26 times): 52, 48, 46, 45, 44, 42, 41, 37, 36, 35, 29, 28, 26, 23, 22, 21, 17, 16, 15, 12, 11, 8, 5, 4, 2, 1
Vills & Vamps win: 40


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

Ebilshrimp wrote:
Zagwyn wrote:
The Mayor (WG or VG)
This villager can choose to reveal themselves as the mayor, thus giving them 3 votes during the day. If revealed, the mayor can no longer be protected by the Sorc. Before revealing they are a normal villager.

This role already exists however they don't reveal since that's too strong for the villagers again, one less target he evil roles can lynch. Too unfair.
Yeah but the difference is that the mayor can now not be protected anymore by the sorc; thus, resulting in a possible sure kill for the wolves, even when the sorc is still alive.

Also with the mad overtaker, people probably then know someone has been overtaken. I like the fact that last game we didn't know when someone had been overtaken as it adds to it. E.g. can the priest/dark inquisitor still change their role because of the overtaker?

I am also in favour of just announcing the role "Vampire" instead of the vampire with a number, giving more insecurity to the vills when this vampire was actually turned or whether this person might even be the master vampire.


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun, 2017  Reply with quote

WG Role:

The Pure Man

The Pure Man starts off as a normal villager and he is not informed of his role -- thus, at the start of the game he is working for the villagers, and is "seen" as such. If the Pure Man survives until Day 3, he is transformed into a wolf and added to their ranks (he gets informed of who the other wolves are). If the wolves eat him before Day 3, nothing happens, but if the Pure Man is lynched during the days 1 or 2, this triggers Divine Retribution, which prevents the Sorc action the following night.

Inspired by the lyrics of Iced Earth's Wolf:

Even a man who's pure
And says his prayers by night
(He won't hear your prayers)
Man become a wolf
When the wolf bane blooms,
And the autumn moon is bright
(There's a full moon tonight)
Man may become a wolf


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