EN | NL | FR
Current Wings Quest 129
Pause Time

Could it be... more than likely

Post new topic Reply to topic

Author  Message 
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
Could it be... more than likely
PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

THE POINT:
- Could people be doing things in their waking life that dramatically hinder lucidity by feeding their subconscious something to "work-on" or "figure out"

Alright. Hmm... where to begin? I've been doing research. Well, who here hasn't right??? I'm sure we all have. Half my reason for loving this forum. Ideas aren't facts making the topic of Lucid Dreams open to the majority, seeing that it has been "solved" or defined yet.

My research has led me on a path parallel to Lucid Dreams... Normal Dreams. Obviously everyone reading can see the connection. According to Sigmeund Freud (sp?), dreams are a subconscious release of internal desires and, for lack of a better term, "personal issues".

One of the big, definitely not the only, questions posed by Lucid Dreamers, are "Why?"

- "Why do we lucid dream"
- "Why are we not always lucid?"
- "Why are only some people lucid?"
- "Why are we dreaming at all?"

I don't have a concrete answer, but I might be able to shed some light. I believe Lucid Dreaming is the "gateway" to something more. I call it God, you can call it anything you choose.

Now could Lucid Dreaming be used to improve ones waking life. Sure. And I'm sure this not the only lil thread dwelling on that topic. If Freud is right, dreams are subconscious "issues".So is it plausible to say that once one has reached an inner harmony, Lucidity could be more easily attained [if not automatic]. This is based on the posing of a simple question...

"If one has no inner 'kinks' to work out, what would one dream about?"


Dream signs, we are all familiar with them, and how to use them. But why are they different per person. Why do they vary.

People do things daily. Wow what an obvious general statement. People do things daily they know they shouldn't... that has a little more substance to do it.


THE POINT: AGAIN
- Could people be doing things in their waking life that dramatically hinder lucidity by feeding their subconscious something to "work-on" or "figure out"


I believe so. After describing my only [noticed] recurring dream to a complete stranger on this forum, he perfectly matched my interpretation of what it could be. (For illustrative purposes, I have missed an airplane flight about 25 times) We both agreed it was my need for something more, something great, extraordinary beyond myself. And on a personal note, I know why I have missed it... a VERY BAD habit I have been internally torn inside over for upwards of a year.

Okay Wond3rland, why come out with all that... simple because EVERYONE has an issue. Some deeper than others, some more easily treated than others. I believe that troubles, or "issues" are more deeply routed to our sub conscious than regular occurring thoughts.

The simple association of problems & dreams, almost, if not completely, give purpose to dreams. They could very well be our internal clock working out kinks in the gears. People already agree upon sleep being therapeutic and neccessary to live. Could dreams be put into this same category. I believe so, based that it is in our inate character and composition to dream.

WE DON'T HAVE TO TRY TO DREAM - isn't that odd?

WE ONLY HAVE TO TRY TO LUCID DREAM - isn't that odder?

They both serve a purpose. Possibly the same one.

CONCLUSION:
I believe getting your life "right" on EVERY level will not only help and assist in your LUcid adventures, I believe that it will guarantee Lucidity once the inner peace is reached. You just have to believe Lucidity is natural and meant to attained. I mean after all why would we be in "control" 2/3rds of our time spent on Earth... nah that doesn't make sense to me at all. God, or whatchu call him, is smarter than that. WAAAAAAY smarter than that.


back to top
relV
Light
Dream Deity
Posts: 935
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Last Visit: 09 Sep 2010
LD count: yummy
Location: RWW.relV
 
PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

some very nice points you raised there Wond3rland.

I find this interesting:

"WE DON'T HAVE TO TRY TO DREAM - isn't that odd?

WE ONLY HAVE TO TRY TO LUCID DREAM - isn't that odder? "

I will try to make my perspective as clear as possible.

First of all, we don't have to try to dream, just as we do not have to try to wake up.
Seeing one reality as superior to another is just an erroneous assumption that has its roots in cultural beliefs about the superiority and infallibility of the 'physical' universe.

As a natural thing, a rule-set that has been imposed on us to facilitate our growth and therefore, 'god' 's growth , if you call 'him' that way.

We typically stay in the 'waking reality' for some time, then phase to the 'dreaming reality'.
*note*
While some people have 'disorders' causing them to sleep once in a couple of days only, others tend to sleep for more than 12 hours a day.

Why do we have to try to lucid dream?

As I already pointed out before, I do not appreciate it when someone talks for more than himself, not to mention, for the whole of humanity.

As your suspicion suggests, it is indeed possible to reach a state where lucidity is a normal byproduct of dreams. I can say that it is probably easier than you think and not that related to inner peace. Although inner peace has a major influence on lucid dreaming (and every other aspect of anyone's life), you don't have to achieve 'perfect' inner peace for that state of mind.
You'll be surprised but it is entirely possible for one to try to be not lucid, having lucid dreams as his normal dream experience while having normal dreams as more unusual.
Again, the point of view claiming that 'we only have to try to lucid dream' indicates on a belief you have , regardless of how many people might share that belief with you right this very moment.
Don't be fooled into believing that something is absolute because some, no matter how much, people are experiencing it. (not to mention the fact that each of them is handling a somewhat different thing)

But, again, as I suspect, your intuition was right on spot, once again, when you sensed that there is something 'deeper' involved here.
The way I see it,
the reason is very simple (putting aside beliefs and fears for a moment, which alone are very effective)

and the reason is..

Most people do not lucid dream naturally because they do not lucid live naturally.

Don't throw that stone at me yet wink

Most people tend to live their lives on an automatic pilot kind of way.
Doing everything they are doing out of ingrained beliefs and habit patterns.
So, they just go day by day with their activities without really consciously thinking and making choices. Just going on minute after minute, autopilot!
See what I'm saying ?
Just try..
Try for one day, to think about every moment and every action you take, really consider if that's good or not , if that action will be rewarding or not ? Do you really want to take that action ? This goes from scratching your forehead to eating a biscuit to going on line to what you are doing in the evening.. Anything and everything.

The question that ought to be raised is what is lucidity ?
What does being lucid mean ?

According to the dictionary, being lucid means, having a clear mind, being able to clearly express oneself.

So , are you not lucid in every dream according to that definition ?
Sure you are!

Why, you're just as lucid as you are here, and possibly more.
Your communication skills do not evaporate or decrease.
Your intelligence does not diminish and your sense of self surely remains the same.

So , what does change ?

The only difference is that you are not aware of being in a dreaming state.

There's a huge difference between that lack of awareness and considering yourself to not be lucid , so I do consider the term lucid dreaming quite erroneous.

So let's examine a common modern western.

He goes through his day , mostly , almost entirely, on autopilot.
He goes to sleep , 'loses' his consciousness for a while and then enters the dream state.
Now, again, remember, there is no fundamental difference between waking - dreaming, except for the one you consider. Both are different types of experiences.
No one is superior to the other.

This is where it gets fairly easy..

He enters the dream, he experiences a reality, much like the physical one, he can feel the chair he's sitting on, he sees the trees outside his window, he smells the food coming from outside, and he hears the music from the other room. He fundamentally cannot differentiate between the two realities, because, fundamentally, there isn't any difference. There's more types of experiences, and all are valid. Different and valid

Combine this with the ingrained beliefs almost all of the westerns have of the superiority of the physical waking life and it becomes clear to understand why, when first bumping into this reality, he does not consider it to be something other than physical.

Now, as always, just as he wakes up, he turns on the autopilot mode. He loves that one ! lach1
And goes around doing whatever he's doing, on autopilot.
You are probably aware of the nature of that reality to be no less rich than the physical one. Is there an emotion you cannot experience in a dream ? Love, hate, fear, anger? etc.. is there an intellectual stimuli you cannot initiate in ? a sensual stimuli ? anything?
So, what is the difference? less stability, less certainty.
But that doesn't make any difference to the western guy we are examining. His beliefs got him so convinced that this must be physical waking life , and he is so locked on autopilot that he doesn't even begin to consider that possibility. Sure, if it was as slow and stable as the physical reality, he would probably notice, because he would have more time to digest as a result of the slower rate of activity.
So, let's say,
his dream starts in a hotel, he wakes up in a bed. *Autopilot mode: on*
gets out of bed, sees a friend of his, (does not even cross his attention how he got there and what's his friend doing here), talks to her and they start kissing when someone enters the room and interrupts them, he feels uncomfortable and so immediately cease activity and leaves room , his phone rings, he answers and it's his lawyer telling him something about a contract, his autopilot (based on his past experience, quality of consciousness, intents, fears etc..) leads him to worry and think deeply , ponder about that contract, by the time he's through, he already completely forgot about his lawyer and that conversation, due to the nature of that reality and the lack of stability. But, do not fear, he's already in a nice bar with his best friend drinking a beer and then the rest of the dream takes place in the bar and involves a certain lady.. It does not matter what happens, a midget can shoot right from his *** and he would still not realize it's a dream. Why?
You should have your own answer by now.
So, now , this guy wakes up. If the dream was completely nonsense and he's not in touch with himself, he won't remember any of it, probably. If it was somewhat realistic , maybe he will, only to realize then that it was a dream .
But , most importantly, what does he do then ?
Turns on Autopilot .
gets up, washes his teeth, takes a shower, eat breakfast, and go on an emotional/intellectual/sociological/physical autopilot mode..
Think about this:
If you are truly considering every choice you make , every minute of the day, constantly being aware of what and why you are doing what you are doing.
Can you enter a dream not 'lucid' . Isn't that what's lucidity is all about ?
Isn't that where it springs from ?


back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

I haven't finished reading your post yet, but... this seems to always come up me speaking for "everyone" Hmm, I need to do some work to clarify... I'm smart, take it how you want to. Ha. But, we should agree that of course I'm smart enough not to include "humanity" in my assumptions. I just ASSSUME people that it doesnt apply to can look past it. I do play role of "majority" in alot I say, this is true. I play that side of things when I try to get people to listen, or in this case read. So relv, never again do I want you to think that... especially not view it as a problem. Never do I purposely include everybody. I talk alot, people who know me know this to be true. But I do not talk on things I do not know about, not saying I know it all... just have enough for input. Got me? And as usual, I look forward to reading your posts. We have some good "back & forths"... that's all until I finish reading...

back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

Alright, so what I think of that... hmm, good. Yah, good to say the least. I'm working on that. I mean the whole Lucid living thing. Because it ONLY makes sense. I've done alot of hallucinogenic (Moderators- I'm using that for an example). I know what it is like to question waking reality. I have lived on Jurrassic Park, talked to birds. Seen the apocalypse, all in waking life. My perception was that far off on mushrooms. So to bring it all back to Lucid Dreaming, there has to be somethings more. This life isn't enough. It isn't good enough. But just to be fair, I believe people... SOME people... are to blame. Not the life or design of it itself. Losing 1/3 of a waking life doesn't make sense. Unless it's replaced by something. And as you point out, it could be the opposite, maybe we've lost 2/3 of Lucid life in all reality. This "Rabbit Hole" I have fallen into (Lucid Dreaming) is intense. And even more intense are the questions it raises about ''normal'' waking-life. The esoteric nature of the whole thing blows my mind. How I and a community of people could know the secrets to life, while others just point saying "Those aren't the secrets at all." But as you said before, I think that was you... work on yourself. Truth is in who you are, what you do... not what you say at all.

back to top
Vegetableman
New member
New member
Posts: 3
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Last Visit: 25 Feb 2009
 
PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb, 2009  Reply with quote

I have often wondered why are some of us allowed , or somehow stumble upon these abilities where as the rest of the population write you off.There is definately a factor of luck and the strains put on you , the dreamer, by the environment. I honestly could say I wouldn't worry too much about why you experience these things because the experience itself should be enough to hold you up against the onslaughts of the unknown.. enjoy life, enjoy the serenity of something that most people do not know exist.

back to top
Hotrootsoup
Young Hippie
Somniologist
24
Posts: 222
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Last Visit: 15 Oct 2010
LD count: 6
Location: CA
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

Hmm, well I didn't really read the whole thing, but I came to the conclusion of " We dream to work out problems that happen in waking life." Its seems like an interesting theory to me, but then what about WILD? MILD, yeah our brain could stop us from LD'ing if we practice MILD, ( or just RC or whatever) but when we WILD, we go from awake to asleep, so our brain couldn't stop us there. It doesn't exactly disprove your theory, but maybe that impure people have a better chance with WILD? Just putting in my $.02 before I go to sleep, so If it seems like nonsense, it probably is.

back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

Wow. Right and Wrong. What I got from what you said might make more sense this way. Pure people (dreamers with less sub con "issues") have a better chance at WILD. It seems that dreams may serve as a spiritual guideline. I got really close WILDing today with a little afternoon power nap. It was insane. I feel as if "Landing to sleep" rather than the social paradigm of "falling asleep" WILD feels like the long lost superpower everyone is capable of.

back to top
relV
Light
Dream Deity
Posts: 935
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Last Visit: 09 Sep 2010
LD count: yummy
Location: RWW.relV
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

there shouldn't be anything difficult or hard about WILD, it's only because of our fears and cultural beliefs regarding the superiority of the waking world, the nature of our minds, dreams etc..
Inability to make a transition between the reality frames indicates a poorly evolved consciousness. An evolved consciousness can easily do those things, there shouldn't be anything harder about WILD'ing than playing soccer.


back to top
Hotrootsoup
Young Hippie
Somniologist
24
Posts: 222
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Last Visit: 15 Oct 2010
LD count: 6
Location: CA
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

Heh, glad I could help.I figured posting when I was that tired would make me look like a retard.

Yeah, I'm starting a 1 month WILD experiment, and I just started last night, but It does seem like a long lost power.It feels like everyone should know how to do it.


back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Mon 02 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

WILDing shouldn't be difficult but it is for most. And everybody let's talk about why. Yesterday was my first REAL attempt it was 6:30 in the evening. Out of the entire experience the falling sensation stuck the most. As well as the numbness and swurls of light. (I had them best explained as the lights and shapes that you have when you rub your eye or something.

*I think I felt my eyes rapidly move, that was really weird. Is that right???*


back to top
relV
Light
Dream Deity
Posts: 935
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Last Visit: 09 Sep 2010
LD count: yummy
Location: RWW.relV
 
PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

"is that right?"

Expectation and beliefs about the experience are counter productive.

It is an individual thing. Therefore, it varies from one person to another.
You may share some common symptoms with other people, but you shouldn't rely on them. This is a process and it is different for every person.

Falling sensations, as well as numbness and swirls of light indicate some progress, some disassociation from the physical, keep it up, and you'll get it . smile


back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Tue 03 Mar, 2009  Reply with quote

Thank you. I understand, learn from other peoples experiences. But don't treat them as a stencil for your own success. Makes sense. Where's the topic on this forum for REM sleep, and the preceding stages???

back to top
Display posts from previous:
Post new topic Reply to topic

print  

All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB
LD4all ~ spreading the art and knowledge of lucid dreaming online since 1996 ~