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Lucid Dreaming is FAKE

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PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2009  Reply with quote

ya know this is a quality discussion, but the GLARING TITLE seems to be casting a doubt cloud over the ability

someone needs to make a title "lucid dreaming is REAL" to balance things out


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2009  Reply with quote

LD4ME? wrote:
Dragos Chronos wrote:
I never looked at the people for LD'ing but only the people against it.


Why in *** name would you look for that here?

To be fair, if he had started the topic in a different tone, he would have had a lot of insightful replies as to the many senses in which Lucid Dreaming is fake --- psychiatrical, neurological, philosophical.


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Qu
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PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2009  Reply with quote

bruneth wrote:

to the many senses in which Lucid Dreaming is fake --- psychiatrical, neurological, philosophical.


hæ?
please elaborate? grin


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PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2009  Reply with quote

i buckled down and did a WILD this mornin,

the only thing not real about dreams is they seem to exist in the personal individual history relative to this life, which means that new sensory experiences and/or paranormal and/or shared dreaming are tricky, as i would not consider it astral if you cannot learn new things.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 May, 2009  Reply with quote

I think people who can't LD tend to think of LD like magic eye pictures. Everyone, including me, is really annoyed that they can't do them and I believe that everyone who claims they can see them are in one giant conspiracy to annoy me specifically.

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PostPosted: Thu 21 May, 2009  Reply with quote

does this thread ripple out into infinity and share scientific and objective knowledge to anyone who holds this thoughtform, "lucid dremaing is fake" so that they are no longer contrariwise ?

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Bruno
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PostPosted: Thu 21 May, 2009  Reply with quote

Q wrote:
please elaborate? grin

Sketch argument: why is waking life not like a dream? How differently does our reason function during a dream as opposed to waking hours? Is it possible to say there's more suspension of disbelief, or less lucidity, to dreams than to real life? If there are no clear boundaries between dreams and reality, or between lucidity in and outside of a dream, then the expression "lucid dreaming" yields a mostly irrelevant distinction.

Full version: suspension of disbelief is everywhere, not just in dreams. Consciousness is only momentary at any point in life. (Think about: how we give up lucidity in order to enjoy a movie or a book). (Think also about: how we fail to question the most bizarre situations in real life just as well as in dreams, as shown by those "Candid Camera" TV programmes).

As thinking beings, we follow "mind scripts" which direct our perception (there's nothing inherently "red" about red: in fact eskimos tend to think of red and pink and orange as the exact same colour), our habits (the thereshold for hunger, cold and many other things, more than just phisiological, is cultural: I rembember at one point in Amsterdam a situation where I felt it was too cold whereas Siw couldn't stand the heat), even our social behaviour ("justice" only works because and so far as people follow the script: the universe itself is absolutely indifferent to the concept, it's meaningless without humans to reinact it).

In real life as well as in dreams we can realise we're following unnecessary scripts (let's call this "momentary lucidity"): we can realise there's nothing "red" about red, experience the sensation of flying, convince ourselves that our neighbour is a T-Rex in desguise even though we have no neighbour to begin with. The only differences between a lucid dream and waking lucidity would be, first, that lucid dreaming is relatively self-contained (so long as you're neither a sleepwalker, nor psychotic)...

...and that you can violate the laws of physics with much more ease than you would be able to in real life, where you have to go through the tedious task of convincing yourself you're floating and then proceed to experience the full blown delirium (I don't think even a hardcore buddhist monk could willingly do that completely sober, but it's theoretically possible, and it happens all the time to psychiatrically abnormal people).

In fact, psychiatrically "normal" people can ever so often, involuntarily, experience the lack of musical recognition, the lack of some sense of bodily boundaries (I, for one, lose proprioception during my strongest migraines), certainty that their death is imminent. Normal people can be taught or convince themselves of following the weirdest mind scripts: nationality, the experience of miracles, hatred, belief in utopias, or that there's anything simple and well-defined about the word "capitalism".

In that sense, yes, he's right. There's no such a thing as lucid dreaming, there's barely any lucidity to begin with. Lucid people would be able to stop through a panic attack and realise they were panicking. Or look at a president and think "they're just a person, wearing formal clothes, saying abstract words" and there would be no perception of power whatsoever about them. A moment of lucidity is when we realise we're only a bunch of hairless monkeys playing a game of Society. This realisation can be much more precious (and is much rarer for that matter) than the realisation that you're trapped inside your own mind and potentially capable of flying.

~ * ~

post note: to those who don't know me (I suppose Q does by now, so I figured the post above would suffice, no need for disclaimers), I don't take sides, and I don't take ideas too seriously. I think the ideas above are valid and potentially true. I don't necessarily live my life by them. I don't see a point, not believing in Lucid Dreams, when I don't live my waking life lucidly enough for the arguments above to matter. So, just playing devil's advocate. Now, if you feel like realising life is a big fat lie and the world is full of possibilities, though, I'd recommend buddhism and the lucid living topic.


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Kaizu
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

whew quite the read.. bit tired for this now, going to read this again tomorrow.

(so now Buddhism =/= realizing life is a big fat lie? tounge2)


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LDLax
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

If it was fake there wouldnt be a science for it, a forum for it, or thousands of people that HAVE LD's/

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greenelephants
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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

I have had several LDs. They're not fake.

Unless you're kidding, I can't understand how you could possibly justify this, considering the forum you are on, which you have apparently used for a while.


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unknownuser_333
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

i think megaspel described almost perfectly the thoughts of someone who doesn't believe in ld's. i myself had ld's as a child and therefore did not doubt for even a moment that they were possible. but same with the magic eye posters, i've never had trouble with them either. you kinda have to cross your eyes just the right way...

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Fallen Youth
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

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Sol[D]reams
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PostPosted: Mon 13 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

Presence of Light wrote:
ya know this is a quality discussion, but the GLARING TITLE seems to be casting a doubt cloud over the ability

someone needs to make a title "lucid dreaming is REAL" to balance things out


Agreed, im new here, and i thought u guys just discovered LD was rlly fake or sumthin


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Fallen Youth
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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

yay good job guys hes back with us again ^^

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Wild Night
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PostPosted: Tue 21 Jul, 2009  Reply with quote

I know for a fact that it is real, because I have lucid dreams. Not everybody has them but we are all (even you) capable of it if we put the necessary effort into it. But if you're not interested in this, then you don't have to think about it anymore.

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