EN | NL | FR
Current Wings Quest 130
Rainbow Connection

The God Delusion

Post new topic This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

Author  Message 
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

God. What a word. What a topic. Been there, done that... but would love to do it again. In my vast studies, debates, and research I have found God to the be the anthropomorphized intelligence behind our universe. Personified as a Omniscient Male Father figure. Based on man's role in old-society. God answers why, and science answers HOW God did it. The two do not disagree they coincide. Belong together, counter opposites, both necessary for a whole. Probability and chance are best summed up by Professor Albert Einstein, "God does not play dice."

If you did not design the tree? A beaver, or a bee? Much less you or me? Then who did. Do not say randomness, or a Big Bang. Your inner ignorance will peak it's ugly head.

As far as the Bible. It's a METAPHOR. All metaphors. Adam & Eve, a story of lost innocence. Which sounds a lot like growing up. Jesus, a faithful son of perfection. sacrificed to the world. Kind of like having a child, raising him in a fallen world- Hoping to teach him right from wrong sufficiently.

LIfe is a test. There is something keeping score, keeping accounts, records... 'for without purpose existence would cease to existence. We would be a woodpecker beating our heads against a tree without a signifying purpose to separate man from beast.

God is real people. Your perception of the concept maybe not.


back to top
Tomothy
Oneiromancer
Astral Explorer
Posts: 407
Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 17 May 2010
LD count: A few
Location: Sydney
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

(My body is a) Wond3rland wrote:
In my vast studies, debates, and research...

I had to check your age to confirm my suspicions before laughing at this...

Wond3rwall wrote:
Jesus, a faithful son of perfection. sacrificed to the world. Kind of like having a child, raising him in a fallen world- Hoping to teach him right from wrong sufficiently.

In what way is the faithful perfect son of God being sacrificed for the world like raising a child and teaching him right from wrong? That does not seem like a particularly useful or cogent metaphor to me...

W0nd3rl4nd wrote:
LIfe is a test. There is something keeping score, keeping accounts, records...

If this the metaphor you got from the bible then I have to say, "You're doing it wrong." Fair enough if that's your belief, but while the bible may not be clear on every topic, I firmly believe it is clear on some and salvation is one of them.

Romans 3:21-25 wrote:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.


back to top
Freecube
Theistic Apologist
Dream Deity
30
Posts: 511
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Last Visit: 22 Feb 2010
Location: NorCal. Age : 20.
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Stuff came up, I did not get to access my laptop in time to properly address this topic. I have over 2 pages of text saved to Microsoft Word, and I will continue working on it to post the final work tomorrow.

back to top
EllyEve
This is not an apple
Dream Deity
EllyEve has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
31
Posts: 771
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Last Visit: 09 Jan 2019
LD count: 20+
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Bombax wrote:
Be careful, telling someone that they "epically FAIL" at presenting arguments counts as argumentum ad hominem. Instead, you should attack the arguments in question.

Indeed.
Topic-frequenters, please disregard that one faulty translation. I only meant to emote my personal view of the incompatibility of both paradigms, and should have kept in mind that emoting is more often the downfall of good argument presentation than the spice. overspannen

Wond3rland wrote:
"God does not play dice."

"You don't tell God what to do with His dice." -- Neils Bohr

Quote:
If you did not design the tree? A beaver, or a bee? Much less you or me? Then who did. Do not say randomness, or a Big Bang. Your inner ignorance will peak it's ugly head.
I thought you said God deals with the Whys and not the Hows? Design sounds suspiciously like a How. The way I understood it, the tree designs itself. We design ourselves to an extent, with every choice we make, do we not? Perhaps evolution is free will made solid.

We still need to work with the design of our parents, all the while blueprinting the design of our descendants, and then there's the world we interact with that encourages the survival of some designs and discourages the existence of others. I wouldn't say "randomness" even if you didn't forbid me. I say: complexity.

If I may backtrack...
Quote:
Do not say randomness, or a Big Bang. Your inner ignorance will peak it's ugly head.
Isn't it more willfully ignorant, to outright ban a concept from mere mention?

Even countering the quote with Stephen C. Meyer suggesting that God was the spacetime, energy-matter transcendent source of all that scientists were looking for, I didn't say, "Oh, puh-lease, 'God'? You're so ignorant." I considered the nature of God, the nature of scientific research, (as I understood them,) found them incompatible, and explained why I found it so. Maybe there's a flaw in my method, maybe someone has figured out how it all actually fits and can articulate it.

But for you to go, Don't even ... well... that struck me as a very closed-minded thing to say.

Freecube wrote:
Stuff came up, I did not get to access my laptop in time to properly address this topic. I have over 2 pages of text saved to Microsoft Word, and I will continue working on it to post the final work tomorrow.

No rush. The point of contention will probably still be here in 100 years, whatever we post at each other at present.


back to top
Problem?!
Futile Dreamer
Novice dreamer
25
Posts: 28
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Last Visit: 05 Jun 2011
LD count: None
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Bombax wrote:
Again, more logical fallacies!

Tomothy wrote:
Yeah so I read Richard Dorkins' God Delusion and I think it's pretty poorly written. I don't have a problem with people criticising religion, but I thought he was offensive and inflammatory at times.
Again, argumentum ad hominem - rather than addressing Richard Dawkin's arguments directly, you attack him personally by calling him "Richard Dorkins".

Quote:
I also found his arguments against the existence of God completely unconvincing. They seem to boil down to, "there is probably no God because it's just heaps unlikely". What a joke.
Secundum quid - hasty generalization. You generalize all the arguments he writes about in his book to something that is very inaccurate. In addition, reductio ad ridiculum: You present Dawkin's arguments with the phrase "What a joke" in a ridiculing fashion, as to divert from the content of the actual content of the argument, resulting in a straw man argument.

Quote:
There are better examples of skeptical writers out there.
Appeal to flattery - in order to illogically emphasize your otherwise fallacious argument, you praise other authors as to make Dawkin's writing stand out as especially poor, when it is not necessarily so.


I can only imagine the environment this guy is typing these messages in.
Have you ever been laid? Actually, have you ever held a girl's hand?


back to top
P90X
Leader of nothing,
Astral Explorer
P90X has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
23
Posts: 399
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Last Visit: 25 Jan 2016
Location: I'm around.
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Bolax, instead of arguing with timothy, you seem to be focusing on the fact that he put down the book.

Now i would be happy to hear you argue for the book, instead of making fun of people who call it the peice of crap it is.

And i know what your going to say,
your just going to point how when i tell you to argue, somehow my logic is wrong and still not put an argument that supports dawkins


back to top
EllyEve
This is not an apple
Dream Deity
EllyEve has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
31
Posts: 771
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Last Visit: 09 Jan 2019
LD count: 20+
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Problem?! wrote:
I can only imagine the environment this guy is typing these messages in. Have you ever been laid? Actually, have you ever held a girl's hand?

He recognized my Magritte reference, I'd tap that.


back to top
Tomothy
Oneiromancer
Astral Explorer
Posts: 407
Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 17 May 2010
LD count: A few
Location: Sydney
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

EllyEve wrote:
Problem?! wrote:
I can only imagine the environment this guy is typing these messages in. Have you ever been laid? Actually, have you ever held a girl's hand?

He recognized my Magritte reference, I'd tap that.

Me too actually...


back to top
Abren
The Only One, Abren
Lucid Initiate
Abren has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
23
Posts: 51
Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Last Visit: 10 Oct 2009
LD count: Infinite
Location: Planet Tomell
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Believers, give me a break. If you want to test your faith, read Dan Brown's 'Angels and demons'. a great novel. taught me a lot about God. There's probably no God. so stop worrying and enjoy your life



Last edited by Abren on Wed 16 Sep, 2009; edited 1 time in total
back to top
Tomothy
Oneiromancer
Astral Explorer
Posts: 407
Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Last Visit: 17 May 2010
LD count: A few
Location: Sydney
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

I guess it's like my Dad used to say, ask a teenager while they know everything... [/patronising]

back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Tomothy, I'm not offended. Can't be when I'm right. And as far as the age thing. I know much more relevant information, less trivia, than the average 50-60. Not all, but most. It's okay oif you don't think Gods real. You'll find out one day. Thank God it's not on me to convince you. We're called to try, to attempt and share. He opens eyes. And while you smile and patronize, I smile because of the joy and never ending nirvana I've found in the Lord. He is personified intelligence. Look around you, what did you create Tomothy? You didnt even create yourself. At most you created a table, a fish tank, birdhouse. God designed the entire universe. As well as LDs. You will wake up one day. Don't nit pick other people as your reason not to believe. We, as in Christians, arn't perfect either. But we're the sect of believers who are TRYING to be.

God does answer Why, Science answers HOW God did it. Design doesnt sound like anything, it's the other half to a whole. God can answer both. Science lacking purpose in life, can only begin to describe gravity/photosynthesis/atoms. Science is a bunch of fancy words put to things that already existed. We as humans are not discovering more, we are making more stuff up. More irrelevant distractions.

If you dont see God when a baby is born, or during a sunset, or as you hold a female friend, or petting a dog, or watching the wind blow, or seeing a plant grow.... then there is nothing I can do. The whole world is a sign of intelligent creation.

"Your probably the type to explain away a rainbow"

Light refracted through gases of whatever...

I've tried, and will try again. Pure logic leads to a creator. Surrender control and your ego. Maybe you don't want to answer to something higher? Dunno? Thats between you and the judge. Hopefully the day you bring a child into the world it will click as you hold life in your hand and you yourself feel like God to that child.


back to top
mattias
Globahead
Globahead
mattias has successfully completed an LD4all Quest!
32
Posts: 4348
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Last Visit: 08 May 2016
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

I don't really have the patience for god discussions but I was just wondering if anyone here has seen Zeitgeist? (the first part, at least) what are your thoughts? Although I admit I didn't really research any of the information presented there shy2 , it made a lot of sense to me. Then again, I wasn't raised a christian, so...

(sorry if this is slightly off-topic)


back to top
Wond3rland
Astral Explorer
Astral Explorer
30
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Last Visit: 29 Sep 2009
LD count: 22
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

Your right, I cant dive into it again. I have the same debate, that's already been heard. besides 5-6 billion people are believers, just with different names. I have no reason to voice what I believe to be true. God (Our cosmic intelligence) wants to reveal himself to you, he will. In an amazing way, that will have you in awe. I know this to be correct. Not a matter of if, but when.... hmm when...???


But I must laugh, someone said we built ourselves, and so did the tree. Ha Ha Ha. I gues I wasnt there in class that day. I must have missed the chapter of cosmic architecture. You know, orbits... atmospheres... intelligent life.

I have been called closed minded before. I just spin that as, "I've made up my mind." We all have to sometime. I am open to different religions and sects. Not atheism. Sorry. There is to much logic and science behind creation.

Einstein spent much of his life trying to read God's head. And on his deathbed he was asked if he believed and replied "I use to think God was a gardener. I've come to find he's the garden." Well put Professor.


back to top
Bombax
Dream Deity
Dream Deity
Posts: 523
Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Last Visit: 24 Mar 2018
LD count: Thrice a week
 
PostPosted: Wed 16 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

(When did "educated in logic" come to mean "can't get laid"? And EllyEve, I take that as a flirt )

Wond3rland, as much as my gut tells me to respond in a rhetorical fashion, I will withdraw and I will instead dissect your arguments to expose their illogical state.
Quote:
Can't be when I'm right. And as far as the age thing. I know much more relevant information, less trivia, than the average 50-60. Not all, but most.
Provide evidence that you know much more relevant information than the average 50-60. Provide evidence that you are right.
Quote:
God designed the entire universe.
Provide evidence for this.
Quote:
God does answer Why, Science answers HOW God did it. Design doesnt sound like anything, it's the other half to a whole. God can answer both.
Prove it.
Quote:
Science lacking purpose in life, can only begin to describe gravity/photosynthesis/atoms. Science is a bunch of fancy words put to things that already existed. We as humans are not discovering more, we are making more stuff up. More irrelevant distractions.
Secundum quid, reductio ad ridiculum and a straw man argument. You are distorting what science consists of and summarizing its contents to something very inaccurate. In addition, you present science in a fashion which makes it look ridiculous, when it is not necessarily so.
Quote:
If you dont see God when a baby is born, or during a sunset, or as you hold a female friend, or petting a dog, or watching the wind blow, or seeing a plant grow.... then there is nothing I can do. The whole world is a sign of intelligent creation.
Prove it.
Quote:
I have the same debate, that's already been heard. besides 5-6 billion people are believers, just with different names.
Argumentum ad populum, just because many people believe it, does not mean it is correct.
Quote:
I know this to be correct.
How do you know it? Provide evidence which supports your knowledge.
Quote:
But I must laugh, someone said we built ourselves, and so did the tree. Ha Ha Ha. I gues I wasnt there in class that day. I must have missed the chapter of cosmic architecture. You know, orbits... atmospheres... intelligent life.
Reductio ad ridiculum and a straw man argument. You put something in a fashion appearing ridiculous to make the arguments seem ridiculous, when it is not necessarily so. In addition, you make a straw man argument by distorting what science's position on the creation of objects say, in order to draw a radical conclusion, without even asserting the original claim.
Quote:
Einstein spent much of his life trying to read God's head. And on his deathbed he was asked if he believed and replied "I use to think God was a gardener. I've come to find he's the garden." Well put Professor.
Contextomy, a form of false attribution, or fallacy of quoting out of context. Quote mining if you will. Provide reliable evidence that Einstein said this. And even if you do, it doesn't matter, because...
Argumentum ad verecundiam. Einstein was a very proficient scientist, but that does not mean that everything he said was correct.
Quote:
If you did not design the tree? A beaver, or a bee? Much less you or me? Then who did. Do not say randomness, or a Big Bang. Your inner ignorance will peak it's ugly head.
I should mention here that I have written computer programs which simulate evolution using genetic algorithms, and thus I have proved that the evolutionary principle is correct. I will supply these programs to anyone who asks. (and indeed, a straw man argument - evolution is not random. Natural selection is highly non-random, and is the most important part in the principle of evolution)


If you respond with further illogical arguments, I find no point in arguing with you, because then I know that you are arguing on an emotional level on which any conclusion can be made, instead of on a rational level where logical conclusions are made.


back to top
Smeester
Somniologist
Somniologist
28
Posts: 144
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Last Visit: 11 Jul 2011
LD count: 4
Location: United States
 
PostPosted: Thu 17 Sep, 2009  Reply with quote

*I would like to join this debate for the fun of it, i don't set out to make enemies, or change opinions.*

From what i have gathered, there are 3 different theories on the existence of the universe.
1. Intelligent design
2. Big Bang/Evolution
3. Computer Simulation/Dream
You can consider 1 and 3 basically the same as they would require a superficial being.
In my opinion the theory of Evolution is flawed because of many small reasons. i will point out a couple.

1. species in between - There are no animals in between today's known species. For example if humans evolved from monkeys there would have, at some point had to be something in between monkeys and humans. Is there any reason why all those species would have died off today? And even if they did we haven't found any remains of them. <that isn't entirely true, as i have heard that they have found few things they classify in between; but shouldn't there be millions of them?

2. The evolution of sex - assuming we came from single celled organisms, at one point we would have had to come from budding (splitting into two identical organisms) to our sexual reproduction. Are you going to tell me that a male and a female evolved at the same time.

Science is generally based on proof, the thing is there is no proof for the existence of the universe.

If you don't believe in God, then for your sake i hope your right.




Last edited by Smeester on Thu 17 Sep, 2009; edited 1 time in total
back to top
Display posts from previous:
Post new topic This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.

print  

All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB
LD4all ~ spreading the art and knowledge of lucid dreaming online since 1996 ~