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Character Assisted Lucid Dreaming...CALD part VI

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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Talon Arana wrote:
wolvendeer: Coolness, I'm sorry things didn't go quite as planned-- But if you ever want some help scrolling, I have a pretty good memory of what's happened here C:

Meh, don't worry about it. At the moment I'm on the 6th or 7th page of part 3 of this topic. Reading through it again has given me so many more insights and I think that taking the time to investigate this from the ground up with my characters (specifically my original three) will help us out in the long run. I've already begun an investigation thread at my other forum, starting with tearing apart the weaknesses of the old "find a random DC and tell them to make you lucid next time you're dreaming" technique (LILD, I think?).

Allow me to lend you a bit of advice, though. You should stop worrying so much about stepping on people's toes. If they can't understand the beautiful piece of technique you've given the community then it's their loss, and if they bother you about it I'll stuff them in a gym locker somewhere for you. wink5 Seriously, I've been with this technique longer than anyone else [still] here besides yourself, and I've been doing this type of thing for most of my life. In fact, I think most authors do this in one form or another. It's completely normal, and there is no reason to be afraid of what other people think of your technique. smile smile

Note that last part had nothing to do with my request, but rather to do with me reading through the topics again, especially the part where you were ready to drop the topic completely because of something LDPhone (I believe it was) said. We dreamers are an open bunch, and we'll support you. You don't have to back yourself into a corner trying to explain things to people that want to call foul about. Offer a gentle explanation of the limits of existence of your characters, then move on and let us take what we will. Trying to over explain it away will only lead to more people thinking there is something wrong with it. My explanation to anyone who asks is something like this: your mind can generate and maintain DC while you're asleep, so why not while you're awake? Sure due to the preoccupation of the mind with other things they'll be less detailed in a perceptual sense, but they are no less [or more] real than they are when you're asleep.

I hope I'm not coming off as being hard or anything like that; I'm just trying to help you out with something I've noticed you doing over the course of the thread (since May 2007). [I'm trying to be helpful.] grin

All the Best,
Wolvendeer

PS - In part three I wrote about a massive falling out with one of my characters. We've since come to an understanding and are on good terms again. In fact, he's helped me out greatly since then with a few IRL issues I was having. ^^


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Rhewin
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Here's a quick question for you: I've noticed a recurring character in my dreams. I already consider him a candidate for a dream guide (next LD I have where I remember him wink5 ), but I've been reading over these posts and a thought occurred to me. He would be perfect for trying the CALD technique on because of the number of NDs where I have interacted with him.

There's only one downside. He's a character from a TV show (The Doctor, from Doctor Who to be precise). I'm wondering if the fact that I wouldn't be the one to build him from the ground up would be a problem? Moreover, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to give a TV character their own existence in my mind.



Current LD goal(s): Defeat Xander in our lucid duel!
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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Don't worry about it rhewin, that's still perfectly fine. In fact, my first character was Kiba, from Naruto, and my second was Gaara. Give him a chance and he'll become his own person and I'm sure he'll be just as helpful as any other character. wink5

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Talon Arana
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

wolvendeer: Thanks for the kind words, they certainly are encouraging-- Also: That conflict with that other member was very embarrassing, but it would have been dishonest erasing it ^^; I appreciate the support. We'll have to work on this, yes?

rhewin: wolvendeer's completely right, it's no issue to have the character come out of a show, as long as you develop him into something you can personally connect with, the technique will still be fine. The most important thing for LDing with characters (generally) is just to have a good idea of how you'll pursue lucidity after attaining said character i.e. pre-sleep lucidity talks, or consitant reality checks w/ characters as memory assistants C: . Have fun and remember we'll always be happy to hear updates ^^


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Rhewin
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick feedback, I really appreciate it. I did have a couple more questions, though. I'm sorry if this was asked before, but I got lost at about page 5 of part 2 of this massive thread nuu .

When you first began with your characters, were you simply having imaginary and/or in-dream conversations with them? Or did you just daydream with them as characters until they were "sentient?"

One last thing, and this might sound a tad weird, but is there anything you would specifically advise against doing when trying to make a character independent?



Current LD goal(s): Defeat Xander in our lucid duel!
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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Hmm, I'm not exactly sure in which way you mean, so I'll just give you a brief overview of my first months with Crystal. smile

Lets see, in the beginning I kinda 'saw' myself swordfighting in a dead forest with a white wolf girl. I didn't pay attention to it, but I saw it a few more times until I decided to use her for CALD. Crystal, as you'll see, was independent from the get go. Actually, all of my characters were, and most of them were spontaneously generated. You might have seen my account of my character that took form as Gaara in the part 2 thread.

Quote:
I close my eyes and appear in the dead forest, at the edge of the stream. I look around and gather nine stones from the area before going back to the edge of the stream and setting them down in a circle, half in and half out of the water. I sit down after enclosing myself in the circle and rub my hands together, "charging" my energy. I push the energy out of my hands and make a ball, then close my mind's eyes and let it take form. A few moments later, I hear a voice.

"Hello, I'm [Crystal]."


Now, when I was busy, I would just have a conversation in my mind with her, like you might imagine a telepathic conversation to be like. If I was bored someplace like a dinner meeting or something, I would zone out and sort of meditate my way into the forest with my eyes open so that we could talk 'face to face'. If I was alone, I would usually do a full meditation into the forest and talk with her that way.

Since I've never had to 'make' a character independent I can't answer your last question, but hopefully I've managed to answer your first one. I don't know. @_@


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Rhewin
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Well, I think that answers part of it anyway. Sorry, my mind works in strangely complicated ways >_< . I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make them independent. I suppose starting by talking to them in a lucid dream might be best for me, because anytime I daydream it all seems scripted out.

Quote:
Now, when I was busy, I would just have a conversation in my mind with her, like you might imagine a telepathic conversation to be like. If I was bored someplace like a dinner meeting or something, I would zone out and sort of meditate my way into the forest with my eyes open so that we could talk 'face to face'. If I was alone, I would usually do a full meditation into the forest and talk with her that way


That's the part I was mostly wondering about. Am I right in thinking you've met your independent characters in dreams, and were able to pull them into wl? (that's the last question, promise wink5 )



Current LD goal(s): Defeat Xander in our lucid duel!
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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Not at all, Kiba is the only character that's come from a dream. All of the characters I have though have come into existence in one way or another independently from me. Crystal appeared in daydreams before I created her 'body', Foxy walked up to me while I was creating a dreamscape for the Paradiso program, and Silence (Gaara) just *appeared* and started barking orders at Kiba. So, that might have something to do with my characters' independence, but it isn't just because the characters come from dreams that makes them independent. I think it is more based on the minds of each person how long a character takes to gain independence.

Keep the questions coming, the better you understand everything the less you have to reinvent!

(I'm also interested in hearing Talon's response to this, seeing as how she doesn't have automatically independent characters like I do.)


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Talon Arana
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

wolvendeer: Wow, you're fast! :P It's good to see dedication and makes me feel nostalgic when I hear your familiar story ^^

rhewin:
Hey! C: I know the size of this thread can be disorienting, that's why we encourage asking! ^^ wolvendeer was quite correct about the questions C:.

When I began with my characters, it was daytime conversation after fleshing out their basic beings. After a while, I started roleplaying with my friend, and their personalities fleshed out a bit more. Basically after that, I always saw them in new situations, and their personalities were more tangible-- I then started discussions before bed, and for fun, doing character questionnaires. The most important bit to getting a character sentient for me was to treat them as real people would be... as best as possible, at least ^^; We all know there are physical-nonphysical issues here.
The creator of Bleach (Tite Kubo? I'd have to check the interview again...) has a similar approach in that he treats his character as real people, and gets the detailed chars he has from them. The difference here is that we're trying to cultivate a sense of sentient understanding in the character, as in Deadpool (who is wickedly awesome and frequently breaks the 4th wall).

Things I specifically advise against? Creating a bad character power dynamic.
What I mean by this is not to 'glorify' your character never be the passive individual when dealing with a more aggressive/conceptually dangerous character.

It hasn't come up yet, but I would advise never to forget that you shouldn't create a relationship between you and your character that could be harmful (ex. Developing a malevolent character with no intent on assisting and spending precious WL hours with said character).
Otherwise, don't be tense about your environment or people. Just relax and try to get into a moment with your character without thinking of anything else.

I find that writing down your dialogue (without thinking) with your character is helpful, as you don't have time to process what you're about to say, and the scripted feeling disappears over time. I hope that helps some.

Many people have met characters in dreams that they choose to use for CALD, the difficulty is in how to do so.
Some people choose to take the character's concept into WL and develop it there, where you'd follow standard WL development (dialogues, sometimes character quizzes, and mostly keeping said character in mind and interacting until their personality is tangible). This is personally a technique I'd follow, I've had success before in developing a DC by using the fast written dialogue mentioned above to sort of 'get the character out' of my memory of my dream.

Oh sorry-- Word wall ^^; I hope it was helpful to you, though. Please ask if you need clarification on anything!


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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Talon Arana wrote:
wolvendeer: Wow, you're fast! tounge2 It's good to see dedication and makes me feel nostalgic when I hear your familiar story ^^

^^

Talon Arana wrote:

Things I specifically advise against? Creating a bad character power dynamic.
What I mean by this is not to 'glorify' your character never be the passive individual when dealing with a more aggressive/conceptually dangerous character.

It hasn't come up yet, but I would advise never to forget that you shouldn't create a relationship between you and your character that could be harmful (ex. Developing a malevolent character with no intent on assisting and spending precious WL hours with said character).

Yes, like the one character I spoke of way earlier. Silence thought he could control me and have me as a puppet, so I had to put him in his place. Allowing a character to get too big for their britches is something that shouldn't be done. If they try to twist your arm, assert your power over them. truit


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Talon Arana
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What I've wanted CALD to be
PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

An ideal of CALD from Tal

[ Quick summary of below text wall:
-I list off concepts* that CALD was based on
-I briefly discuss the progress of one of my main characters
-I state personal goal for what CALD will become
* Concepts are mostly: non-physical beings, validity of such beings, the concepts of soul/emotion ]

General CALD note:
I've been thinking for a long time about what I've wanted CALD to eventually become. The core ideas that I've tried to touch on in CALD are further exploration and interaction with non-physical beings, and the validity of created beings.

We are born into this world fortunate enough to have bodies, if characters are created entirely within the minds of their creators, is their existence valid? Why?

What is emotion? Soul? Would it be possible to create a being that possessed either in their own right?

And if the soul cannot be created by man:
Is it possible to have more than one soul in a body? Could it be the life's challenge of that non-physical being to be born into the mind of another?

I've wondered these things while I've watched the emotional/mental development of one of my characters over the last 2 years. I've watched him grow into understanding of his burden in life, wonder if his own existence was entirely valid, if there would ever be a total freedom of mind from me, and if there was a God. If he was God-made and God-loved. He prays for the blessing of God's acceptance sometimes.

Our story is of Pinocchio and his Geppetto, but we have no body for him, we have no magic.

What I would love CALD to eventually be is an exploration of the concept of non-physical beings: if such beings can be created with sentience within the scope of our perception and whether or not those beings are valid.

I would want this technique to transcend the boundaries of character development we have now, and be something that helps us to question who/what we are, what defines a soul and emotions!

I would want this tech to provoke thought about how seemingly intangible concepts can be accepted and beneficial.
And for those for whom this could apply (I certainly would like to be one): I'd like this to be an exploration of spirituality and tapping into another facet of non-physical existence.

Woof. I'm pooped out ^^; it feels good to type all that out! I hope we can have some discussion on these, I do so love these concepts and thoughts.
It's hard to think I started this journey at 13-- and now here I am almost 17! Wow.

~ Wishing happy lucids to all.
Tal


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Rhewin
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Talon and Wolvendeer, thanks so much for taking the time to thoughtfully answer my questions. I think I have a good understanding now of what I need to do if I'm going to ever make The Doctor more than just a puppet.

And extra thanks to you Talon. I kind of feel good about how this will work out for me. I've done a lot of the things you've recommended already, but I've simply done it in the 3rd person. I guess it's time to get myself involved.

Thanks again, and I'll be sure to let you guys know if anything comes from it.



Current LD goal(s): Defeat Xander in our lucid duel!
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Mourningstarr
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

so wait, these characters are created in your LDs? do you literally sculpt them like clay and then teach them to live as an individual?

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wolvendeer
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

Mourningstarr wrote:
so wait, these characters are created in your LDs? do you literally sculpt them like clay and then teach them to live as an individual?

yaaaawn One final answer before bedtime. I'll have to get to Talon's post tomorrow. It made me-> T_T smile

The characters are either taken from characters we see in our dreams or they are created consciously, much like you would create a character that you were going to use in an RP or a story. I think that part you can read the CALD Tutorial in the KB to clarify this with if I'm not providing a really clear answer. As to how we get them to become an individual, I believe for those whose characters aren't already independent on creation, they will talk to the character for a while, listening fo a response but not providing one if they don't get one, and try to hear a response back. It will take a while for the characters in these cases to speak, but they will do so on their own time. In cases such as mine, the characters will often pop out fully sentient, and may often surprise you in doing so. Like I said earlier, one of my characters spontaneously appeared and started barking orders at another of my characters! lach1


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Teraflare8866
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Feb, 2010  Reply with quote

I've been gone for a day, and this thread has grown loads.

It's as if my subconscious doesn't want to me to lucid dream - I still haven't had a decent lucid dream in months (I've had some so-so ones fairly recently), maybe because I didn't properly get to grips with stabilising a dream. But Talon covered stabilisation in an earlier post - which I thank him for, and will remember to do so during my next lucid. Also, falling asleep too early while trying the technique annoys me as well, because I forget to reality check or my character doesn't appear.

Last night I was daydreaming an 'episode' (that's what I call them) with my characters - I'm at a really exciting part. However, it's too exciting I forget to ask them to make me lucid - because I fall asleep too early like mentioned earlier in this post. My 'episodes' usually join to make a gigantic story, with one continuing from where I last left off. Hopefully I will continue from where I last left off in a LD, and will enjoy every second of it when it comes.

I've just had a thought - I could try VILD, and make up a scenario with my characters, asking me to do a reality check (which makes me lucid) - and when I transition over to the dream my character(s) will be there, and there's no need to summon them. I'd never thought of this at the time when I was combining the methods. Does anyone think this could work?


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