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Meat or non meat diet, is one more healthy?

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tosxyChor
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

xxmoriahxx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what's it like being a vegan? What can you eat? Gosh, I don't think I could survive without meat or dairy. You've got some serious willpower!!!
Vegan is about not eating animals, or their derivatives. Once you start to eat varied fruits and vegetables, it isn't half bad smile plus remember that man is very adaptive, so there's many viable kinds of diet one can follow. Of course, some healthier than others but vegan is pretty much the healthiest I know.



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areYOUdreaming
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

tosxyChor wrote:
xxmoriahxx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what's it like being a vegan? What can you eat? Gosh, I don't think I could survive without meat or dairy. You've got some serious willpower!!!
Vegan is about not eating animals, or their derivatives. Once you start to eat varied fruits and vegetables, it isn't half bad smile plus remember that man is very adaptive, so there's many viable kinds of diet one can follow. Of course, some healthier than others but vegan is pretty much the healthiest I know.

Yeah, what he said But, Vegan probably isn't the healthiest diet!! I've tried the raw food diet ( Eating nothing that is or contains ingredient's that have been heated above 115), but it's just impossible ! I always felt hungry eh
Anyways, I'll let you know how my McDonald's Croissant tastes in my Lucid Dream!! ( Just as soon as I can manage to have one )


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dntrecords
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

areYOUdreaming wrote:
But, Vegan probably isn't the healthiest diet!!


that's ridiculous. why do you think it's not?

and without a doubt, a meat diet is the unhealthiest diet out there


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Dreamer
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

dntrecords wrote:
areYOUdreaming wrote:
But, Vegan probably isn't the healthiest diet!!


that's ridiculous. why do you think it's not?

and without a doubt, a meat diet is the unhealthiest diet out there


I've got to very much disagree with this. With a vegan diet it is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet, but you have got to be extremely careful that you eat enough of all of the different nutrients that you need. There is one vitamin (one of the B ones I think, possibly B12) that you cannot get naturally from a vegan diet alone. Luckily this is added to lots of foods and drinks (such as ribenna) but without this artificial fortification vegans would be missing out on an essential vitamin. Even with this fortification it is very easy for vegans to miss out on essential nutrients unless they take a lot of care.

In a vegetarian diet you still need to be careful that you're eating all of the nutrients that you need, but because of the addition of eggs and dairy products you don't need to be as careful. With a meat diet though, you don't need to be anywhere near as careful that you're getting the correct nutrients, as meat provides so many of them. However, you do have to be much more careful that you get the balance right (in regards to fat, carbohydrates and protein), and don't eat too much meat and too little vegetables.

So all of these diets can be healthy, and all of them can be unhealthy. If you take care in what you eat, then all of them can be equally healthy. But if you don't take care in what you eat, I would argue that the vegan diet has the greatest potential to cause ill health. This is especially true for children, and I have read about cases of malnutrition in children (from middle class, well-off parents) because of a vegan diet that has not provided the full range of nutrients.



Back on topic, I've never eaten food in an LD, but I have drunk beer. It was very realistic and tasty!


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dntrecords
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

Dreamer wrote:

There is one vitamin (one of the B ones I think, possibly B12) that you cannot get naturally from a vegan diet alone.


not true at all. all essential nutrients/vitamins can be found in a natural source. here is a small list of natural sources of b-vitamins (since you mentioned that specifically):
bananas
potatoes
tempeh
lentils
chili peppers
and many other green veggies here is a page listing the nutritional content of a bunch of veggies/fruits: http://www.lenntech.com/fruit-vegetable-vitamin-conte nt.htm

Dreamer wrote:
With a meat diet though, you don't need to be anywhere near as careful that you're getting the correct nutrients, as meat provides so many of them.
...
But if you don't take care in what you eat, I would argue that the vegan diet has the greatest potential to cause ill health.


are you forgetting about growth hormones that are injected in many animals?

not to mention that processed foods contain so many chemicals that are known to be harmful. there are a lot of health issues that arise from a meat diet, such as "appendicitis, arthritis, breast cancer, cancer of the colon, cancer of the prostate, constipation, diabetes, gall stones, gout, high blood pressure, indigestion, obesity, piles, strokes and varicose veins


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Dreamer
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

dntrecords wrote:
Dreamer wrote:

There is one vitamin (one of the B ones I think, possibly B12) that you cannot get naturally from a vegan diet alone.


not true at all. all essential nutrients/vitamins can be found in a natural source. here is a small list of natural sources of b-vitamins (since you mentioned that specifically):
bananas
potatoes
tempeh
lentils
chili peppers
and many other green veggies here is a page listing the nutritional content of a bunch of veggies/fruits: http://www.lenntech.com/fruit-vegetable-vitamin-conte nt.htm


There are natural sources of all B vitamins except one. I've looked it up, and it is B 12. The following quote is from the Vegetarian Resource Group http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

Quote:
Plant foods do not contain vitamin B12 except when they are contaminated by microorganisms or have vitamin B12 added to them. Thus, vegans need to look to fortified foods or supplements to get vitamin B12 in their diet. Although recommendations for vitamin B12 are very small, a vitamin B12 deficiency is a very serious problem leading ultimately to anemia and irreversible nerve damage. Prudent vegans will include sources of vitamin B12 in their diets. Vitamin B12 is especially important in pregnancy and lactation and for infants and children.


Thus, someone eating only a raw foods type diet, with no fortified foods of any kind is at serious risk of a vitamin B12 deficiency, which can be very serious. It is perfectly possible to get B12 in a vegan diet, but you do have to have artifically fortified foods or supplements.


Quote:
are you forgetting about growth hormones that are injected in many animals?


From a health perspective this really doesn't concern me (as opposed to an animal welfare perspective where it does concern me). It seems very unlikely to me that there'd be a build-up of hormones in meat from this, this isn't how hormones work. But even if there is growth hormone in the meat, I really think that it will be destroyed by the acids involved in the digestion process, such as stomach acid.

Anyway, a simple way of avoiding this and other chemicals would be to eat organic meat and cook it yourself.

Quote:
there are a lot of health issues that arise from a meat diet, such as "appendicitis, arthritis, breast cancer, cancer of the colon, cancer of the prostate, constipation, diabetes, gall stones, gout, high blood pressure, indigestion, obesity, piles, strokes and varicose veins


Ok, firstly for some of the things you've mentioned I'm fairly certain eating meat has no effect on. For things that it does have an effect on, such as colon cancer and obesity, the problem is eating too much meat and too little of other foods (especially fibre), rather than just eating meat.

The key to healthy eating is balance. With a balanced diet then both a vegan and a meat-eating diet can be healthy, without balance they can both be unhealthy.

Anyway this is getting dangerously off-topic, maybe we should start a new thread?


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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

dntrecords wrote:
areYOUdreaming wrote:
But, Vegan probably isn't the healthiest diet!!


that's ridiculous. why do you think it's not?

and without a doubt, a meat diet is the unhealthiest diet out there


Guys, let's all consider our motives for posting here. I'm not accusing either side of doing this, but it strikes me that those who argue with this degree of passion do so because they either take exception at people being prepared to kill animals to eat them, or at being criticised and attacked for doing so.

As the forum guidelines say, please don't post with the intention to covert people to your system of beliefs, that includes the belief that it is unacceptable etc to eat meat or that a vegan diet is unnatural and therefore wrong in some way etc.

-----------



I'm not sure I can add anything to Dreamers eloquent post. I agree with his description.



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Last edited by GreenDragon on Sun 07 Nov, 2010; edited 2 times in total
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FretDancer
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

tosxyChor wrote:
xxmoriahxx wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what's it like being a vegan? What can you eat? Gosh, I don't think I could survive without meat or dairy. You've got some serious willpower!!!
Vegan is about not eating animals, or their derivatives. Once you start to eat varied fruits and vegetables, it isn't half bad smile plus remember that man is very adaptive, so there's many viable kinds of diet one can follow. Of course, some healthier than others but vegan is pretty much the healthiest I know.


I thought (and have heard) that vegan was the worst. Because you stop eating so many other things that contain minerals and other stuff that are needed in your body.

Not really sure though, I've tried going vegetarian but I just last a couple of days tounge2, I think its impossible for me. cry



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SamaelNinetails
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

lol let me play devils advocate here for a minute and tell y'all about a very interesting lecture i witnessed, only a few days ago, from someone who was either telling the truth, which is incredible, or was the best straight-faced lier i have ever met face to face - which frankly I highly doubt, as i talked at length with her afterwards and could find nothing about her that suggested she was being deliberately false.

so, let me just say this straight out, with a glint in my eye at the ridicule some will no doubt throw at me.....

this woman doesnt eat.
or drink.
at all.

yep, you read that right, she is what is known as a Breatharian, and claims to take in all the nutrition her body requires, directly from the Sun and the air around her.
She described at length the process she underwent to reach this point, but it is surprisingly simple. It is just a 21 day diet, the first week of which you eat and drink nothing whatsoever, then in the second week you reintroduce water and pure fruit juices, increasing the water in the third week and also reintroducing raw foods as you feel is needed.
After that you are free to either start eating normally again, stay just on a raw diet, or just drink water but no solids.... those with the balls simply give up both solids and liquids indefinitely.

Now. I know full well what most will be thinking right now.... probably first most in your minds will be "the body simply cannot survive without nourishment". And i, and this breatharian that i talked with, would say simply "yes you are completely correct."

"but hold on, didnt you just say breatharians dont eat or drink at all?"

i did, and they dont eat or drink, but that isnt actually the same thing, if you stop and think about it for a few honest minutes. A Breatharian doesnt receive their nourishment from solid food and liquid water but they do receive it - its just, to quote this woman

"I go straight to the source for my nourishment."

Basically she is saying, think about what it actually IS that we require to survive. Because it ISNT solid food, and liquid water, these things are just the carrier system we have been taught to utilise. The actual source of the stuff we need, has been taken by the plants from somewhere else.... the Sun.

And Im not trying to get all metaphysical/overtly spiritual here - Im speaking quite simply and literally. We all know how plants are designed to convert Sunlight directly, through photosynthesis, but almost no one really thinks about the connotations of that.
When we eat a vegetable or a fruit, and one step removed when we eat an animal/fish, the nourishment we get from those solid things is actually sunlight. All life is powered by sunlight. Plants are doing this directly, herbivores are one step up, carnivores are 2 steps up, and omnivores are just greedy but every single member of those levels is after the same thing - sunlight. its just that those creatures higher up the chain are too lazy to do all the hard work of photosynthesis so they just eat the stuff that does!

Now, cutting through all the hysteria surrounding the idea of not eating, what a Breatharian is doing, really, is just getting over the lazyness and cutting out the middle men from the chain. Why not, when you really think about it?
If someone said that you could only get pineapples through them, by paying a premium, but you knew how to go pick them yourself from the patch out back of your house.... would you really go through the would-be pineapple merchant?

Really?

yea so.... the reaction to this should be fun

namaste



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SamaelNinetails
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

oh and btw, yes im actually seriously considering doing this diet myself... at the very least, it can be shown that we dont HAVE to do what we are told we have to do, it doesnt mean I have to not eat ever again... hell i love eating, in a purely aesthetic sense, im really not sure i could leave that kind of sensual experience behind completely - but imagine having the choice!
Hey Mr Monsanto with your GM tomatoes, and your attempts to make Organic agriculture impossible.... I dont give a rats *** cos i dont actually have to eat! Nya Na Na! (gives the middle finger to 'em)

LOL now wouldnt it be awesome to see the looks on the Monsanto shareholders faces...



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arne saknussemm
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

What's healthy is to cut your carbohydrate consumption to less than 30 grams a day.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

SamaelNinetails wrote:
Now, cutting through all the hysteria surrounding the idea of not eating, what a Breatharian is doing, really, is just getting over the lazyness and cutting out the middle men from the chain. Why not, when you really think about it?


To respond to your question from my perspective, because we lack the necessary structures to metabolise sunlight into energy. In addition to the lack of surface area that would actually be exposed to sunlight, if we make the assumption it would be possible in the first place. Also added to that the fact that there is no precedent for what is claimed, plants still need water and nutrients to be able to produce their energy, which is why people use compost and fertilizers.



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SamaelNinetails
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PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

yes GreenDragon I know exactly what you are saying, but if this woman i spoke with is being honest, there must be alternative ways of metabolising sunlight - yes the plants do it in one particular way but that doesnt preclude the possibility that there are others. (This is like when so many scientists talk about the chances of extraterrestrial life, all the while assuming that such life-forms will be similar to us, and need a similar planet-type.... its much more likely that aliens will be exactly that - alien - and will have totally different biologies to us.)

From what she said,and from the little research ive done since, there is alot of meditation done as part of the Breatharian lifestyle - including techniques specifically designed to fill the body with some sort of energy - most might assume this was a "spiritual" sort of energy, but what if the ancients who created the meditation systems simply meant physical Light energy?
As I say, she would have to be exceptionally good at lying with a straight face, for several hours at a time, at least.... or.... she's telling the truth, and we - the greater part of Humanity - must readjust our preconceptions.... something that is innately difficult for us to do, usually.
(and precedents? some might say there are quite a few - every religion in the world has stories of saints who went for days and weeks without solid food - the Rishis in India still do it today, apparently. But still, theres always got to be a first time, right? Where was the precedent when some bright spark came up with the wheel? it simply didnt exist anywhere in Nature, before we came up with it. Precedents are not always required... luckily...)

at the end of the day, the only way to know is to try it for ourselves.... anyone willing to take up the challenge with me?

watch this DreamSpace....



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Raswalt
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

just keep it in moderation.

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PostPosted: Mon 08 Nov, 2010  Reply with quote

SamaelNinetails wrote:
yes GreenDragon I know exactly what you are saying, but if this woman i spoke with is being honest, there must be alternative ways of metabolising sunlight - yes the plants do it in one particular way but that doesnt preclude the possibility that there are others. (This is like when so many scientists talk about the chances of extraterrestrial life, all the while assuming that such life-forms will be similar to us, and need a similar planet-type.... its much more likely that aliens will be exactly that - alien - and will have totally different biologies to us.)


I'm not assuming its impossible, it was you who drew the parallel to plants as an explanation of your position, I was merely showing how it involves a lot more than humans just doing what plants do. There are a great many leaps of faith if you will, within your reasoning.

Quote:
From what she said,and from the little research ive done since, there is alot of meditation done as part of the Breatharian lifestyle - including techniques specifically designed to fill the body with some sort of energy - most might assume this was a "spiritual" sort of energy, but what if the ancients who created the meditation systems simply meant physical Light energy?


I don't see how this is really relevant to your or my point, was this still directed at me?

Quote:
As I say, she would have to be exceptionally good at lying with a straight face, for several hours at a time, at least.... or.... she's telling the truth, and we - the greater part of Humanity - must readjust our preconceptions.... something that is innately difficult for us to do, usually.


There are several people in asylums that will tell you, in all seriousness that they are the reincarnation of Jesus, with a straight face, and I suspect even pass a lie detector test to that ends. I'm afraid it doesn't mean they are right. (The fact that there are many of such people, at the same time, sort of demonstrates that.)

Quote:
(and precedents? some might say there are quite a few - every religion in the world has stories of saints who went for days and weeks without solid food - the Rishis in India still do it today, apparently.


By precedent, I meant some form of life that reliably and in a empirically proven way sustains itself in this way. This topic is something where empiricism lends itself to good use. It's a great tool and I can't see a reason not to use it here. I'm not saying to limit what you believe is possible to the outcome dictated by empiricism, rather, to pass what you are perceiving through it and acknowledge that if you believe something not backed by an empirical study, you are in the realm of beliefs, which is an entirely different discussion.

Quote:
But still, theres always got to be a first time, right? Where was the precedent when some bright spark came up with the wheel? it simply didnt exist anywhere in Nature, before we came up with it. Precedents are not always required... luckily...)


I think this is the result of a misunderstanding between us on the intended meaning of 'precedent.'

Quote:
at the end of the day, the only way to know is to try it for ourselves.... anyone willing to take up the challenge with me?

watch this DreamSpace....


I not sure I agree to be honest, but I'm going to avoid getting into a debate here on what is real, and leave your comment be.



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