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Do OBEs exist? (Discussion)

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JaySkyecrest
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Do OBEs exist? (Discussion)
PostPosted: Mon 07 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

<mod>This topic was split from a topic in the Lab. dragon</mod>
They most definitely exist. I have experienced one myself. The real question is whether you are merely dreaming or whether you are actually out of your body. The whole thing would be rather hard to prove. It can get very confusing.



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WASD
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

DreamerZero wrote:
They most definitely exist. I have experienced one myself. The real question is whether you are merely dreaming or whether you are actually out of your body. The whole thing would be rather hard to prove. It can get very confusing.

I'd like a third option: None of the above. It may be a separate kind of experience that is neither dream or out of body. Like meditation.

Assuming it's not out of body, it's a lot about definitions. 1. It's just a dream. 2. It's a different type of dream. 3. It's not a dream.

The definition of dream is apparently "A series of thoughts, images, and sensations occurring in a person's mind during sleep" which points toward number 1 or 2. I personally think 2 or 3 sounds correct. Meditation can cause those effects but you're not really asleep while you meditate. Maybe you're not really asleep during an OBE? In that case it would be number 3. Once again, assuming it is not out of body.


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PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

I will definitely conduct my own experience. I've thought about telling someone to write down something on a piece of paper and put it somewhere and then read it if possible.

I've had only one experience with what could be called OBE and from that experience I would say that OBE is a type of a dream, but I can't say that because I don't have enough experience with that.

Although inducing that one OBE is what made me think that... I was on my way to do WILD and at point where I would usually let myself to fall asleep I thought I could try to OBE and I use advices from Bob Monroe for inducing OBE. I don't remember whether I fall asleep or if I was doing this technique for OBE while I was still in WL...

So yes, I need a lot more tries and then I could say accurately what OBE actually is but only for me because this experience is just too subjective and personal...

And something else, I don't know if somebody else had this feeling but after that experience with "OBE" I was kinda less interested in lucid dreams, they felt like less experience then OBE or whatever that was...



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glypheye
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

I totally believe OBE's are real! I don't need to convince anybody else...and nobody can prove me wrong, so...I utterly delight in believing it and believe also, that my belief lends itself to the intensity of the experience itself...which is a pure pleasure wiske


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glypheye
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

OH.....just read the "lab" post. Yes, I have utterly no proof whatsoever that they could ever be considered scientifically real, nor do I give a mashed potato to ever have it scientifically proven. So I'll respectfully extract me-self from this discussion :D Tally ho!


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Paulius
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

Most people are saying that OBE's are real. But the thing is, that you don't give any scientifical proof for it, just tell your experiences. I would like to clarify, that personal experiences are not regarded as proof in the science community.

To prove OBE's, you must do two things:

1. Find a theoretical reason why they would exist. What body part is responsible for creating OBE's, how does it work, how does it function? If you suspect a body part being responsible for OBE's, look up information on it, and improve the theories.

2. Prove your theory with experiments. If, in example, the body part responsible for OBE's, according to your theory, is a specific part of the brain, do a brain scan while the person is performing an OBE. Record all the brain activity. Then compare it to the brain activity of a person, who does not have an OBE. If the scan shows that the brain part is indeed active during an OBE, it may be your proof, but not yet.
You must compare your results to other experiments, which may be confused with your results. In this case, it would be dreaming/lucid dreaming. When you have your results on an OBE's brain activity, compare it to LD and ND. If they match, you can state that OBE's are caused by the same brain part, as dreams, thus OBE's are dreams. If the results don't match, you can take all the glory for proving a new branch of science - OBE.

What I mean is, that if noone of us does any scientifical research, such topics will go on forever, with everyone arguing about their opinions.
If someone has the ability to run such experiments, please do it.

While I haven't run any experiments yet, I can already see lots of similarities between OBE's and dreams. If you aren't convinced, remember when dreams and OBE's occur. If you haven't noticed yet, somehow, OBE's only occur during the REM phase of sleep. Secondly, inducing an OBE works the same way as inducing a LD - with the WILD method. Thirdly, there have been reported occasions that OBE's have strange colours, inaccuracies, illogical objects, thus making them extremely similar to dreams. While I don't have access to any better proof against OBE's at the moment, I think they don't exist just because of the similarities with dreams. In my opinion, OBE = Dream. It's just the scenario which is different.



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Eilatan
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

Paulis, I would like to point out that not everything in the scientific community is based of scientific fact. In fact, a lot of things are based off of experiences. As a part of my own proof for the above statement, here is the Higgs Boson An anomaly that scientists have not proved yet, but know exists.

I believe that OBE's exist, and that is from personal experience. I do not LD, and I have a friend who also does not LD. In a waking moment, for both of us, he OBE'd to my side and I knew he was there without his telling me. It was after feeling him that he told me what he saw and could describe my position exactly. He told me what he did, which confirmed what I felt him do.

I do not need brain activity to tell me if that was real or not. I would also like to point out that there have been troubles with brain wave activity in the past, where the patients believed so wholly that things were taking place, that their brain waves reflected this. Placebo effects cause troubles in science, therefore even fact cannot be trusted.



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Paulius
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PostPosted: Fri 18 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

Eilatan wrote:
As a part of my own proof for the above statement, here is the Higgs Boson An anomaly that scientists have not proved yet, but know exists.


I must say, that the scientists don't know that it exists, just of the point you have stated - it has not been proven yet. Only the theoretical part has been created, which is exactly what is shown on the wikipedia page you pointed to. At the moment, to prove the exsitence of this particle, scientists are doing experiments with the hadron collider. However, until they've done that, it doesn't exist. It's just a theory.
I wouldn't agree with the statement where you said that science has proof based on personal experience. Science does not accept such proof.

Eilatan wrote:
I believe that OBE's exist, and that is from personal experience.


I respect your beliefs, but OBE's are still not proven.



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JDreamer
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Nov, 2011  Reply with quote

I find this interesting because I personally have a recurring dream theme where I wake up in my bedroom. Usually when this happens I get a sense that I'm dreaming and become lucid and fly out the window (from three stories high no less!, lol sometimes I think twice just to make sure I'm dreaming wink )

Though when I go around to explore outside it's usually vastly different from WL so I suppose they don't count.



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Malina
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec, 2011  Reply with quote

zyonc posted a very interesting book in the "Dream Journal" topic.
http://obe4u.com/files/SOBT.pdf (page 8 - 23).
=> It teaches you OBE as a part of LD. The technique is much more agressive than what we usually do.
zyonc is trying it here : http://ld4all.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43190



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Debeselis
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012  Reply with quote

xxmoriahxx wrote:
Alright, alright...

I'm just wondering, if I attempt an OBE, how do I know the difference between that and a WILD?


OBE Exist! Proven by me smile You can see your body, all real waking live around you. You become astral, Like Ghost/Spirit. You can do anything like in LD, but playground Real World.

In my second OBE i tested it. I looked what is happaning in other room. (It was early morning, my friend was up, and i saw what he did. I fast back to my body and went to watch it was true or not. And he did exactly what i seen) So i prove my theory smile



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glypheye
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PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan, 2012  Reply with quote

JDreamer wrote:
I find this interesting because I personally have a recurring dream theme where I wake up in my bedroom. Usually when this happens I get a sense that I'm dreaming and become lucid and fly out the window (from three stories high no less!, lol sometimes I think twice just to make sure I'm dreaming wink )

Though when I go around to explore outside it's usually vastly different from WL so I suppose they don't count.


Yes, this happens with my OBE style WILD's as well...my apartment looks the same, for the most part, but when I go through the front door, !BAM! the setting changes almost instantly...although there have been a couple that I remember where I was still in the vacinity of where I was actually sleeping, with everything "in place" so to speak.

For me, the term "OBE" is simply a descriptor of the type of WILD from the dreamer's perspective. If I have a WILD where I go from waking state and then emerge directly into a dream scene that has nothing to do with where I'm sleeping, usually...then that's a typical WILD for me. If, while laying awake, I get the perceptual sensation of expanding beyond my reclining body to then roll out of it or pop up and out of it, then i call that an OBE simply because it feels/looks like my awareness is moving directly from "in body" state to an "out of body" state right there in the room I'm sleeping in. Sometimes I'll be able to look over and see my sleeping form with my wife laying beside me, sometimes not...and sometimes elements of my room or apartment will become malleable and shift even as I look at them...shapes of doorknobs, seeing my kids playing around even when, later, I've found out they are asleep. I think this type of occurence might lend itself to OBE's not being "real" in a way that waking consciousness is real...but then again, some OBE-ers have much more stable OBE's and insist that they are very real indeed. Personally, I couldn't care less whether or not they are "real" in terms of classification of what is considered provable reality. What I'm interested in is the depth and quality of what I perceive when in these states and how it enhances my daily experience IRL. If they are "real" in the classical sense..that's exciting. And if they are "not real"...that's just as exciting..mind-boggling even, given how real they feel when they do occur en force.

I think I'll go over to the "shared dream" section to see what's cropped up there. Fascinating stuff! :D



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nosce
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012  Reply with quote

My poor but real experience is that OBE is much different than LD (sorry for my bad enflish).

1. In fact OBE are SO CLEAR, so stable, it's like "over real" compared to dream who are "steamy" or "smoky" or "blurry".

2. dreams are for me always difficult to remember, even if it's going better. OBE is total clear, and I remember everything (but this can be explained for the moment by the short length of it or the happening near the waking up).

3. OBE starts for me from an awaken state.This wake up state is initiated by a short LD, where i say "i want to wake up". Then i'm totally conscious in my "asleep body" and strive to go out of my body. The consciousness is the same as in the daytime. I can think to everything about my reallife (the day we are, my next day etc)

4. The fear I feel during an OBE has not a single common point with the fear of a nightmare. In a nightmare, if you're threatened you try to fight or run or everything you can. In OBE, the fear is SO amazing that you can do nothing more that returning to your secure and sweet body.

5. OBE gave me the unforgettable sensation that "i am NOT my body, but so much more".



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Remember Tomorrow
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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012  Reply with quote

But how can you know it's not just a very lucid dream? What you describe could be an LD aswell. My LDs can be more real-like than reality itself ( and are not blurry) and at the majority of the times not to mention, why is it excluded that what you had was a false awakening inside an LD?

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PostPosted: Wed 18 Apr, 2012  Reply with quote

If we do a WILD like an OBE and an OBE like a WILD, why do some people still say that OBE is real ?


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