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My theory as to why we can't LD at will.

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austizmo
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My theory as to why we can't LD at will.
PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

I believe that there is a very good reason that we cannot LD during every REM sleep state. I think we need normal dreams. Dreams are the time when our brains sort and cataloge our experiences. Without normal dreams we would become as disoreinted as if we were deprived or REM sleep entirly. What do you think? Sound plausible to you?

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Mimix
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

indeed...but some people have SOO much experience they get like 2-3 a night always! 0.0

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austizmo
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PostPosted: Sat 27 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

Yes, but most people enter REM sleep 4-6 times a night. Giving even experienced LDers plenty of time for normal dreaming.

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daysong
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

Well, most of us have probably heard about how dreams keep us sane.. And I'm assuming that means normal dreams. So that could be why. There must be some reason for why we don't naturally LD.. Hmm..

/ds


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Mimix
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

I dont believe dreams keep us sane...if we dont have them - I dont think anything would be different unless we are LDers and often say "I had a dream..."

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austizmo
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

I ran a Google search looking for research about this. I came up with this link from MSN.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/Columns/?Artic le=dreaming

If you don't want to read the whole thing, here's the relevant piece.
Quote:

If you don't get to REM, buddy, you're in big trouble. Researchers have confirmed this by having people sleep in their lab and waking them up every time they enter REM sleep. The researchers have another group of test subjects sleeping in the next room. These folks are woken just as often, but only after they finish a REM session. Both groups get the same amount of sleep, but only one gets to dream.
The people in the latter group do fine. Whatever sleep they lost, they don't seem to need it. But the ones who are prevented from going into REM sleep? They go to pieces. After six or seven nights, they get irritated, nervous, anxious, confused, disoriented, paranoid--and then they begin hallucinating.
To sleep, perchance to dream? There's no perchance about it. We sleep in order to dream! We need to dream, or we go crazy. In fact, animal studies suggest that dream deprivation will kill us even faster than food deprivation.


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Tomas
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

There are people who can LD on will through wild though smile

If you are an experienced lder, you can even induce them in evning, before sleep, though you are not supposed to have a REM period at that time.

If its healthy, i dunno


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mystic
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

Tibetan monks think the other way round. They say it's a waste of time to dream non-lucid. These dreams are pointless and useless, except perhaps for western psychologists. Tibetans want to understand their true nature, and to stay in this state of understanding until the pointless dreaming stops. However, LDing is only a side-effect of their practices and not necessarily product of the will. Ultimately they want to stop dreaming, to stop the illusions.

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phungus
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

perhaps in that case we do not lucid dream because if we did, we would not be mature enough as a whole peoples to use these dreams wisely. We would use them for our own fun, sex and adventure instead of using them to discover the spirit and get to know it better and improve ourselves. hence, we have been denied the priviledge of controlling how our dreams run - because if we could control all of them we would only use them for our own gain...

sounds a lot like the real world eh? neutral too many people use it for personal gain instead of taking time to reflect and ask "why"? perhaps when we as a race can show this maturity and spirit in real life, dream and astral worlds will not be so "afraid" to open up to us...


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Ed Case
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep, 2003  Reply with quote

I would like to point out one key thing. Lucid Dreaming doesn't mean you are necesarily in control of the dream or alterting it in any way, it simply means you are aware that you are dreaming. A lot of lucid dreams are probably nearly the same as it would have been if it wasn't a lucid dream, just with the addition that you are concious of the fact that it is a dream.

And even when you think you've got control, how much of it are you REALLY in control of? How do you know that the way it's happening when you're controlling it isn't the same way it all would have happened if you hadn't have been lucid?

Isn't conciousness driven by the subconcious? Even in waking life, the thoughts that you think you choose to think are influenced heavily by your subconcious. The same with a concious dream. And therefore, if it was there in the subconcious to begin with, wouldn't you have been likely to have dreamed about it anyway?

Just a few thoughts to add to the mix.

smile
Ed.


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sage
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2003  Reply with quote

I think it's all about training. We can't LD at will because we haven't trained our minds to do that. We've trained our minds to "let go" when we go to sleep, to slip into oblivion and forgetfulness. We want to just forget about everything and have a few hours of (seeming) peace. The reason we do this is because of our upbringing. If from childhood, we were taught to LD, to hold onto consciousness throughout the sleep state... who knows what we'd be capable of.

When I have kids, I'm teaching them to LD. siiw


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Ed Case
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2003  Reply with quote

Good idea, Sage!

:D

Ed.


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Tomas
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2003  Reply with quote

Quote:
We would use them for our own fun, sex and adventure instead of using them to discover the spirit and get to know it better and improve ourselves.

What is wrong with using dreams for fun/pleasure? Dreams are a nice way to get away from the stress of the real world...


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Jack
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2003  Reply with quote

I totally agree.im just sick of people valuing things this way.Spiritual; growth,self improvement......so on.Maybe for some its a goal in life but be aware that for other it simply isnt.And that does not make them any worse,less or whatever.Its just a question of personal interests....if you want to go spirituall way in every aspect of your life ,fine,if you just after pleasures that life delivers.....fine too.Its all relative and what one should or shouldnt is only up to one:)
same goes for dreams ,obes,eating,religon and sex.
take care


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Technodreamer
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Oct, 2003  Reply with quote

Ah, hello forum. I'll speak in what little time I now have to speak to the LD forum. Yes, I agree, not only should LD be used for spiritial growth but also pleasure. None of us get the pleasure, or even just to relax. We are all busy doing things, that we created for ourselves!

I read an article that says during Non-REM sleep our brain simulates things that we did in waking life. It is a proven fact that repeated thinking of an action, let's say a football move you can't do, will improve your skill by 50%. Now, why would our brain let us waste this ability. So it does it itself. Durning Non-REM sleep it repeats the actions over and over. But in REM sleep the actions change, our brain is now trying out slightly different situations, until the brain tries out something so drastic it leads on to something else. When we wake up, we put together the parts of the dream, not relizing that they were repeated because we can't. The reapeated action was using the same neuron pathway, trying to secure a link possibly, and so we can't tell any difference.

Not only this, scientsits discovered that our brain's neorons go into a state, during Non-REM, that is fatal if left for too long. It is theorised that REM restablalizes this unbalance. Rats that were diprived of REM sleep but not Non-REm died during testing.

So in short, I'm saying REM dreaming isn't essential but is VERY impoartant to sleep.

Sorry for yapping on and on. I will keep an eye on this part of the forum when I can.



Current LD goal(s): Remember dreams
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