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Is lucid a sin?-Part II

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moogle
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

huggkruka .. as mentioned earlier (in this topic I think or it could have been a similar topic at LD4all) it always depends on your own conscience and beliefs, when it comes down to actions in dreams.
IMO the more you try to live a christian life, the more that certain actions in dreams would feel wrong to you.

Somewhere it said if you committed an action in your heart you had done it already....



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Bruno
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

huggkruka wrote:
Off-topic: That was a really stupid argument. You mean a gun is good when it kills people who are not you or your loved ones?

I was about to ask the very same question.

huggkruka wrote:
On-topic: Does Christianity condemn action or thought or both? Cause dreams are certainly not actions, and nobody will feel any worse if I commit oneirocide. Would it be fair to condemn me for that? A Monthy Python sketch of the Spanish Inquisition comes to mind... "heresy of thought", how do they know?

Now now... Let us all remember that God is not The Bureaucracy, in fact, his written legislation is as short as ten commandments (the bible itself was written by people, not by God, and they remind you of that thoughout it so you can always remember God has made no compromise whatsoever nor has he signed a contract attesting that anything in the bible is his word for real.

Why am I remembering everyone of this for the 1165487987th time? Well, because if you skim through the bible, you can easily see a couple of things like: 1) God gave you free will; 2) God created humans, and we didn't change our own nature, so we should be nowadays exactly like He designed us—thus, the lucid dreaming capacities are inbuilt in the system; 3) God's law basically comes down to: have some commonsense and respect other people and the world. Of course, we humans are bureaucratic and need to fins the edges so we can step on them to later tell God "but we didn't walk through it!" But it seems to me that lucid dreaming is as OK as it gets—you can practise lucid dreaming, I mean it, go wild, there's people killing each other and plotting against others and destroying the nature, it doesn't seem clear to me why exactly would God even bother about what you've been doing with your dreams with so many of this real life stuff to be worried about already.

Now, islamism is a bit different. For starters because the islamic book IS a legislation (it seems God decided humankind will not keep it simple, so he might as well just tell them where are the limits and remind them that they should be having fun and being nice to each other instead of trying to go as far as they can without being sent to hell). I haven't read it all yet, I'm halfway through, but I get the feeling that muslims shouldn't go killing people in dreams either because thought is somewhat more precious to islamism and peace, more valuable (come on, when the bible says "don't kill people," it means REAL people; and even so, God himself tells the people of place X—like America, according to its presidents—to attack place Y every now and then).

So there we go. Christians and Jews, go wild, and kill people in dreams if you want to, God might be sad about it because you could be doing something more useful (think about it for a second), but hey, you're not killing real people, so why complain?

Muslims: lucid dream at will, just don't be violent—you can and will be judged for the person you are and that includes your thoughts and desires. Now don't get insane if you kill someone in a not lucid dream, that's a matter between God and your subconscious, not between God and yourself.

People from other religions: refer to your own tradition or ask here. wink5


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Inverted Sense of Reality wrote:
In defence of yourself, in defence of someone else, and in defence of your people (family, friends, town, country...)


That right there, (forget I ever said it though because I don't want to start a big stupid debate that will cause friction between everybody, I thought about that after I posted it and I suppose fire would be better to use in this case,) It's good because there's a perverted stalker after me and my sisters and when my parents are gone that might be the only thing seperating me or my siblings from death or something else, I will NOT let myself become a victim. (although I still would never KILL anybody, injure if I or my family was being threatened, but I wouldn't kill someone,) That's all I have to say about that, I suggest we don't start a fight over it because it's been my experience with these kind of things before that both sides never back down so it's really just a waste of breath.... yes I'm not trying to be mean or anything, really, I'm not, but I just get tired of having arguments with people so I want to cut to the chase ok? geenidee

Quote:
huggkruka .. as mentioned earlier (in this topic I think or it could have been a similar topic at LD4all) it always depends on your own conscience and beliefs, when it comes down to actions in dreams.
IMO the more you try to live a christian life, the more that certain actions in dreams would feel wrong to you.

Somewhere it said if you committed an action in your heart you had done it already....


Thank you Moogle, *gives you a cookie* cookiemonster gni


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Bruno wrote:
So there we go. Christians and Jews, go wild, and kill people in dreams if you want to, God might be sad about it because you could be doing something more useful (think about it for a second), but hey, you're not killing real people, so why complain?


Bruno, I don't know if I've ever disagreed with you, but there's a first time for everything, right? ^^

Check it out:

Genesis 6:5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Mark 7:20-23
That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. " "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, " "Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: " "All these evil things come from within, and defile the man


hmm ......I'm finding these verses by searching for words like purity, thought, and mind on my computer Bible, and I'm offically sick of weeding through verses to find more, but moogle is right, there is a verse that says if do something in thought, you may as well have done it IRL. There is much more about purity of thought and heart.


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Leviticus 19:26 You shall not eat with blood. You shall not divine nor observe dreams.

Interperet this how you like but to me this verse means paying any attention to (or "observing") your dreams is a sin, and therefore it dosn't matter what you do in a dream it's a sin.


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Bruno
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Well, Daniel, that's exactly my point. Both verses said you might do IRL what you do in dreams, so you should be careful with dreams.

Now, the Bible says ad nauseam that humans are by nature evil, or inherently tempred by evil, so telling us dreams can be evil is no big news, as long as you can control yourself and not do evil stuff in waking life, you're not sinning.

PhoenixMaenad, observe there most probably has a sense of abiding by what dreams say or taking them for true. Then again, even a prophet of the old testment himself interpreted dreams... Go figure.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

But it speaks so much of purity of heart. Your dream memories and real memories are stored in the same place, and part of "the heart".

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

I think the simplest thing to do is to go to whoever it is that heads your church in your area (pastor, bishop, whatever) and ask him if he thinks lucid dreaming is in harmony with the teachings of your church. Remember that the Savior said thinking about committing a sin is similar to actually committing it. So excersise self control in an LD. I think it'd be easier if churches took official positions on the subject. Like what some have done with hypnotism.


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DayLight
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Inverted Sense of Reality wrote:
I think the simplest thing to do is to go to whoever it is that heads your church in your area (pastor, bishop, whatever) and ask him if he thinks lucid dreaming is in harmony with the teachings of your church... I think it'd be easier if churches took official positions on the subject.


No, no not at all. Your pastor or bishop has no more real communication with God than you do. He is a man, and makes errors. His interpretation of this Bible is no more valid than anyone else's. Decide for yourself, read the Bible, do not rely on another to interpret your spirituallity.


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Inverted
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Hey, God hasn't abandoned us on the earth to decide for ourselves how we think he thinks we should be. Why should a correct idea for one person be and incorrect idea for another? He has said that he is unchanging. In the past, he has given revelation to the righteous. If he doesn't anymore, that means he's changed. Therefore, he still does. Just not to any random person. It's given to those who live the gospel he gave us, not the gosple someone decided worked for them better. What you do is come to a decision, and ask the Lord if you made the right one. If you sincerely want to know and do your part to find it, He will give you an answer one way or another. That's the best way. The simplest way, as I said, is asking someone who is supposed to represent the Lord's gospel if LDing is in harmony with the gospel.

If none's interpretation of the Bible is valid, what the point of even having the book?



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Robin
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

The book is a beautiful collection of rules, laws and wise men's words; it's very helpful for the life as it is now and actually a good thing that so many people swallow it.

I think it turned out as a upright collection of metaphors and people turned it into a "don't-do-this-or-god-will-punish-you"-thing, which lead to more and more lies, with Jesus Christ being said as the son of god and stuff like that.


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moogle
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Robin wrote:
which lead to more and more lies, with Jesus Christ being said as the son of god and stuff like that.

That is a flame against the christian religion! You cannot say that is a lie.
Plus I will not allow this topic to decay into a debate about the validity of the bible.

The question is .....
Is lucidity a sin?



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Petter
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Is dreams a sin ?

Why should lucidity be any worse ?


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Flanker
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PostPosted: Sun 17 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Petter wrote:
Is dreams a sin ?

Why should lucidity be any worse ?


Why should it be any worse? Because your own free will is involved in a lucid dream, and not in a normal dream.
But I believe that dreaming in any way can't possibly be a sin. You can't harm anyone else by your dreams, and I don't know exactly if any harm can come to you in your dreams (correct me if I'm wrong, please).


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TAG_One
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PostPosted: Tue 19 Sep, 2006  Reply with quote

Another heretic's view. IMO the whole point of a lucid dream is to be able to experience a situation without having to face the boundaries that you have to face in real life. Rules, laws and fear all create boundaries IRL but don't have to exist in dreams.
By believing in the same morals and boundaries that I do in real life, in my LDs I would feel that I would be unnecessarily limitting myself inside my dreams. Even though I might never carry out many of the acts that Christians would define as sinful in my LD's, I would still feel limited if I knew that I could never carry out these acts for fear of retribution.

However I can also see this from the other point of view that thinking about an action could lead to carrying it out in real life, and I can see how this could cause Christians to worry.

In conclusion. If a Christian feels uncomfortable with sinning in an LD, it's probably best for them not to since even if they don't face any divine retribution, they're still likely to worry afterwards about sinning in an LD. There are many uses for LD's and my advice is that it's probably best just to use the ones that you feel happiest with, whatever religion you have.


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