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Current Wings Quest 131
The Spirit of Giving XIV

Is lucid a sin?-Part II

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Shaper
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug, 2005  Reply with quote

Probably the fact that it's 'different' gets it labbeled a sin by people who just don't underdstand it.
I bet there are lots of people here who have parents that think lucid dreaming is bad or sinful, just because they don't understand it.


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Lelia
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug, 2005  Reply with quote

Josh Redstone wrote:
Probably the fact that it's 'different' gets it labbeled a sin by people who just don't underdstand it.
I bet there are lots of people here who have parents that think lucid dreaming is bad or sinful, just because they don't understand it.

Hehe, yeah my mum is totally against it. She called it sinful and what-not and said she didn't want me doing it. So, I choose not to tell her about my LD's or anything about LDing anymore. My dad on the other hand doesn't mind too much as long as it isn't doing anything harmful to me ^^



Current LD goal(s): Ask my DC's what they represent. I always forget to do this!!!
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Shaper
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug, 2005  Reply with quote

Oh well Frozenwisper, you're parents just don't know what they're missing smile

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Lelia
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PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug, 2005  Reply with quote

Josh Redstone wrote:
Oh well Frozenwisper, you're parents just don't know what they're missing smile

Hehe, so true ^^



Current LD goal(s): Ask my DC's what they represent. I always forget to do this!!!
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PhanthomSpectre
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PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep, 2005  Reply with quote

Christianity has just become a form of control ppl.

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moogle
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Sep, 2005  Reply with quote

PhanthomSpectre wrote:
Christianity has just become a form of control ppl.

what has that to do with the question
Is lucid a sin? ?
and the answer depends on the individual's understanding of sin since what happens when you are lucid just happens in your mind.



Current LD goal(s): 6 LDs per year * ND goals - actively incubate interesting/fun dreams

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Slinger
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I need some advice from Christians..please
PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

<mod>The original topic:"I need advice from Christians, please... has been merged into this existing "is lucid a sin" topic, since it is a similar discussion ^^ </mod>

Okay, heres the thing:

I want to try lucid dreaming but I just cannot tell if God would approve of it. Its obviously a way for Satan to try and get to me, but it could also mean a better understanding of self and possible communication with God in different ways.

I spoke to a wise man, and he said that in a lucid dream, people think that they won't have to be responsible for their actions because it is "not real" and that they can endulge in their fantasies. However, he said the truth was that we can be tempted in lucid dreams just as in life, and we must turn away from that temptation. He said that the lucid dreams he had were god-given and that he doesn't believe in encouraging practising lucid dreaming.

Please give an honest opinion of whether or you believe God would approve of this practise. Its an issue I am really struggling with so please be truthful.

God Bless,

Slinger


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The Nameless One
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Well, I'm a little heretic. Anyway, I don't know how the he...ck they teach religion in that emisphere, but it's up to you what you do in LD's. You can play mutilating people or fly over grassy fields, it's totally up to you. Your mind is in control, and no one else.

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Basilus West
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Hi Slinger,

I'm not a believer and I don't agree with your point of view about God and Satan. I prefer to tell you this immediatly and frankly.

Now, if I shared your point of view, here is what I would say.

If you think that LD'ing is "obviously a way for Satan to try and get to me", then don't practice LD'ing.

If you think the man you talk with was a "wise man", it means that you completely agree with him and you find his words to be full of wisdom. Moreover, he's right when he says that "people think that they won't have to be responsible for their actions because it is "not real" and that they can endulge in their fantasies." Then why to doubt what he said?

If you consider that LD'ing is an additionnal way of being tempted by Satan, then avoid this way.

People who have had spiritual experiences in LD'ing or who could better understand themselves through it are only people who are deeply involved in searching God or try to enhance themselves IRL. People who just think about having big cars, fun and sex IRL don't get enlightment or better understanding in LD's.

I don't know if God would approve this practice cause I don't claim to know God's thoughts. But I see that according to your conscience, you don't approve it. Act as you conscience dictates. Try and be closer to God IRL cause if you aren't IRL, you won't be closer to Him in LD's.

Now if you truly expect having a better understanding of yourself and a possible communication with God through LD's, then pray God for having LD's. Thus, if He thinks it's a good thing for you, He will give you LD's.

(I don't think your thread is well located here. In this subforum, you'll mainly find people who believe in paranormal and new age stuff. I'll ask the Philosopher Cloud mod if he thinks it's better located in his subforum.)




Last edited by Basilus West on Thu 27 Jul, 2006; edited 1 time in total
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regirock
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Sorry to post (another post from a complete heretic), but why do you want to lucid dream anyway? To do those things! Desire is in the nature of humans and all things, you can either live your life in fear of no deity or you can worry about every little tiny thing, then suddenly when you die, you find out you were supposed to be worshipping someone else.
Another point. 100s of the members here are Christians, and more on the point, generally good people. They lucid dream, and yet I doubt they'll be going to hell. You can decide to follow the wise man, I won't judge you, but do keep in mind to develope your own opinion, it's no use living your life being a sheep all the time.
So you can do whatever you like, but at least try it for a few weeks (even murderers get forgiven by God according to the Bible) because what is there to lose?

(Also another point - if you think LDs are evil then you'll think APs are ways of bonding with Satan)


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Duck
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Well, think about one thing - noone know "for sure" why peolpe has dreams. If this is invention from above, you should enjoy dreams, and lucid dreams olny helps in that. Of course, if in dreams you would do SUCH evil things, it might be sin. But as long you will concentrate on doing things that is not possible in real life, like flying, it isnt bad thing.

and i think that lucid dreams would even help you to satan not get you. Always better to have fun in LDs and when you will wake up, you have feeling that you done a lot better thing than such as drugs.

But i am bit confused in faith, so you dont have to take my respond right. I can be wrong. Olny thing that i can say "as sure" that i am LDing and i dont feel guilty with that.

Have nice day, DD


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Larry Boy
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Why would God create us with the ability to dream lucidly and then send us to some kind of "hell" because we use that ability? That doesn't make very much sense to me, and the same goes for all other "occult" practices. Moreover, the concept of "Hell" is a very evolved concept, as is the concept of Satan, and a lot of the ideas for these were borrowed from more "primitive" religions (as was more or less everything else in the Christian faith).
This is a very good article on this:

Above all, if there is a God behind this universe, he would be much too wise and much too kind to create anything like hell. That would be the act of a fiend, of something of low intelligence. Can you imagine Einstein saying to himself, "If my student, Mary, doesn't believe in special relativity I'll run her over in the parking lot!" Can you imagine God, supposedly so much wiser and grand, saying, "I gave Mary a brain, but if she uses it and concludes that I don't exist then I'll roast her forever and ever on my hottest fire!" It doesn't make any sense, does it? No being worthy of respect could possibly act in that manner.

It might interest you to know that hell is an evolved concept! The authors of the Old Testament believed that when a person died, good or bad, they went to a shadowy underworld, sheol, and lived out some kind of marginal existence. The ancient Greek epic poem, the Odyssey, also written in Old Testament times, reflects that view. Though the King James translation uses the word "hell" in both the Old and New Testaments, the biblical manuscripts use several different words. In almost all of the Old Testament the word translated as "hell" is the Hebrew "sheol." Hell was short of fuel at that time!

There was no personal judgment in the Old Testament, save by occasional rewards and punishment for the living. Job didn't get his reward in Heaven! Judgment was usually reserved for nations. In the final judgment, the end-time, all of Israel's enemies would be crushed. A new, golden era would begin on earth with Israel the top dog.

Unfortunately, the ancient Jewish state took some very nasty knocks, especially when Nebuchadnezzar cleaned out the Temple and took the Jewish elite hostage. That captivity brought them into close association with Babylonian ideas, ideas which pop up in the Genesis creation account and in Noah's flood, accounts that were written up around that time. (Genesis is not the oldest part of the Bible!)

After the Persian conquest of Babylon by Cyrus, who allowed everyone to return to their homelands, many Jews remained in Babylon by choice, and they became very inundated with Persian philosophy. Persian (Iranian) philosophy dealt with the battle between the dark forces (read devil) and the forces of light, a battle in which the forces of light would eventually prevail. In the end, individuals would be judged by an ordeal of fire, and the wicked would be destroyed. (I could be wrong, but I don't think the Iranians believed in eternal punishment.)

With the old idea that Yahweh would bless their nation (if they did all the right things) on the rocks, with no light at the end of the tunnel, these new Iranian ideas started seeping into the Jewish consciousness. Ideas from Greece were also becoming influential after Alexander's great conquest. The Jewish revolt against Antiochus IV, who attempted to totally Hellenize the Jews, temporarily restored the Jewish state for a time before the Romans took over. It was during the persecution by Antiochus IV that, in order to boost moral, the Book of Daniel was written. Its Prophecies relate to that era, not to some indefinite future! Its author made some serious mistakes describing the time of Nebuchadnezzar, supposedly the time Daniel lived. But, the closer the text gets to 164 BC the more accurate it is in its details. That was the time the book was actually written. Its author ventured several more prophecies, real prophecies this time, and they all fell flat! (Fundamentalists try to shift this last bunch of prophecies into the remote future! What else is new?)

The idea that justice would be done after all, in a time yet to come, began taking over. The Jewish idea of a messiah became popular. This messiah, descended from King David, would, with God's special help, overthrow the Romans (or whatever) and institute a new, golden age for Israel. He would literally be a king and would occupy the Jewish throne. (Note that there was little or no concept of a Jewish messiah prior to the total destruction of the Jewish state by Nebuchadnezzar. Jewish kings were anointed and referred to as "sons of God," but there was no messiah as such. Messiahs only became popular when things started going sour. The idea that Jesus is the Messiah is an idea advanced by the New Testament authors who simply ripped material out of context from the Old Testament. Suddenly, as far as Christians were concerned, every mention of "messiah" in the Old Testament was attached to Jesus!)

About this time the idea of individual judgment started taking hold, at least for some groups. Between the Old and New Testaments judgment shifts from nations to individuals. God formerly the author of good and evil becomes purely good (as in the Persian counterpart) while the devil, formerly a court functionary in God's employee, becomes a superstar of evil (as in the Persian counterpart). Thus, individuals would now be judged at the end-time and go to heaven or hell. (By now, hell had warmed up considerably and was definitely a place of punishment, though not necessarily eternal punishment!)

Hell was now compared to the yuggiest place in Israel, namely the dump just outside Jerusalem where rubbish fires were constantly burning. The image of the worm (maggots) fit in nicely with a garbage dump. I suspect that even then the idea of eternal punishment was not universal, a point suggested by certain verses in the Bible. The bad guys would simply be burned up like so much trash, and that would be that. But, alas, those favoring the idea of eternal punishment won out. As a club to be held over the believer's head, nothing could rival roasting for ever and ever in the big oven. Maybe that had something to do with the view winning out; it was a great recruiter! Later, Dante turned the heat way up, making hell hotter than ever! Lots of red-hot iron tickled one's tootsies, and the smog was just unbearable--right up there with Mexico City!

Even little kids and babies now roasted in hell! (The latter concept may well be the only original Christian contribution to the Christian religion. Christianity is built virtually entirely on pagan and Jewish rituals, ideas which have been taken over.)

Heaven for climate, hell for good company! (Besides, you can have one helluva marshmallow roast down there.)
Well that's hell in a peanut shell!


I recommend reading some stuff on this site, it might clear things up: http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/

I respect your belief in God and I'm not trying to undermine it, but I think you should consider a little the fact that Christianity has distorted the original beliefs tremendously over time.


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The Nameless One
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Larry Boy wrote:
I respect your belief in God and I'm not trying to undermine it, but I think you should consider a little the fact that Christianity has distorted the original beliefs tremendously over time.

Right, many times a person or council decided when they weren't sure enough about something (see resurrection of the flesh) in the past. Add the "damage" caused by the otherwordly bigotedness of the Middle Ages and you should get a picture of the situation. 2 cents.


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Slinger
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Thanks for your responses. I found this website:

http://www.bebaptized.org/astral.htm

Please tell me what you think about it. Do you think this applies just as equally to lucid dreams?

I have been doing so much research to try and form an opinion on whether or not I should do this. I see many sources embracing and condemning it. Also, theres that "eerie" feeling that comes along with it. Could it be selfish to want control of dreams?


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Fiver
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006  Reply with quote

Once about every month someone asks this question, and the answer is always the same. Lucid dreaming does not conflict with any known, established Christian church. There may be some that no one has ever heard of, like the twice reformed amphi-Baptist church (made up, but you get the idea), but no well known sect of Christianity has ever taken a stance on lucid dreaming. At least in recent history.

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