Psychedelic Dreaming

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The Waves: 08. Psychedelic Dreaming
Self-Existing Moon (September 20 to October 17, 2003)
© 2003 Nick Cumbo

The Waves is a newsletter reporting on the explorations of the Sea Life community. Sea Life, the main web forum at Dreampeace, aims to bring together a circle of dreamers from around the globe, collaborating in mutual dreaming adventures, and ‘dreaming with and for the earth itself’

Link: dreamofpeace.net/sealife

This month, the people at Sea Life, completed a ‘Psychedelic Dreaming’ project, in which we aimed to learn about whether or not it were possible to take psychedelics within a dream, and if so what effects the experience might have. We focused our interest on three of earth’s natural bounty of psychoactive plants; namely peyote (mescaline), psilocybian mushrooms (magic mushrooms), and Salvia Divinorum (diviner’s sage).

Taking psychedelics within a dream obviously has some interesting advantages. For one thing, it gives us the opportunity to experiment freely without the concern of breaking the law or causing serious health damage. For another, it demonstrates the true power of the mind and it’s potential to experience altered states of consciousness without the need for sacraments.

An interesting avenue of exploration involved determining whether or not these experiences were based purely on subconscious expectations, or if it were possible to interact with the spirit of psychoactive plants directly through the dream state. Some of the dreamers at the forum, were concerned about the idea of actually intoxicating themselves with the plant through eating it in a dream, but were more comfortable with the idea of speaking to it directly, to learn about it’s role and significance to the earth.

Jeff, a friend from the Netherlands, had for 10 years been researching and using extensively all sorts of psychedelics in combination with meditation practises and an EEG machine (used to monitor brainwaves). He turned us on to some really amazing experiences. One involved the use of peyote, the common name for a hallucinogenic cactus, of which Mescaline is the active principal agent. A native to Mexico and the southwestern United States, it has been used for centuries by Native Americans in religious ceremonies.

A PEYOTE SHAMAN

“Mescaline I found very special! In one dream I met a shaman, all dressed in plant clothes, who gave me mescaline and every time I took a sip of the peyote drink I saw a part of my subconscious getting unlocked. I saw explanations about why things happened the way they had happened in my life. It was awesome!

At the end of that dream I heard such beautiful music… it was great! I felt so bad when I woke. I didn’t want it to end.

In another dream, earlier in the year, I had come across a massive collection or list of various animals and plants, with healing/positive energies or uses. Plants have been used by human society for healing and other purposes over hundreds and thousands of years, so this came as no real surprise. However, what made this all the more relevant, is that one of the plants listed was ‘Salvia’, of which one particular species, Salvia divinorum is psychoactive.

“The main property of salvia divinorum is to induce flashes of REM activity during waking but without concomittant blockade of motor efferents. This leads to non-voluntary experiences of conscious dreaming or pre-conscious dreaming.”

shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia2.html

Once again, Jeff had some relevant stories of his own to share with us.

“Many people including myself had a salvia trip where you indentified yourself with what you saw in front of you. I looked with my right eye in a dream and didn’t see the world. I thought I was a fence around a garden and with my left eye I saw the normal world and the dream and I laughed that my other brain part was under narcosis. The funny thing thing is I proved with this (through the use of the EEG machine) that you can dream with just one brain hemisphere and not two as we do in normal REM sleep.”

Finally, Z managed to pull of a piece of magnificent dreaming, which gave us a whole new perspective on the link between psychedelics and sea life:

PSYCHEDELIC OYSTERS

I am walking on a beach and enjoying the vast expanses of water as well as the sand and the rocks that surround me. I find this shell on the ground which I pierce open with a knife. It’s some sort of oyster. I eat it and immediately my body begins to feel awkward. I feel as if what I have just eaten must have had some alkaloids in it because my vision changes. I see the ocean now with dazzling specs of light touching every inch of water. It also seems as if the water is moving much faster than moments earlier. As if it’s in fast forward.

I continue to walk and find this grass path which seems to be manicured and thus probably man made. I walk down it and everything is so vibrant and glowing with energy. The track ends at this garden which has many weeping willows in it and old grecian statues. There are rays of light filtering through the trees as well as droplets of water falling from the leaves, as if it has just rained. The scene is magical, as if everything speaks to me. In this drug induced state everything is quite overwhelming.

A beautiful experience! I couldn’t help wondering if Z had just stumbled upon something otherwise undiscovered. Wouldn’t it be interesting if these psychedelic oysters actually existed! The funny thing was only days later a fun-loving new member by the name of ‘threecaster’ joined us, sharing his thoughts on a band called ‘Blue Oyster Cult’.

“I was originally told years ago (maybe I read it on the album) that the name was based on a group of islanders who were found by spanish sailors. These islanders had priests who would eat the local Blue Oysters for psychedelic divinations.”

I’ll leave with you the words of Morpheus, which I think help provide a bridge between exploration of the drug-induced realities, and the world of dreaming. “I believe the usage of these plants can help us to evolve unto greater potential. The only danger comes from the plants becoming crutches upon which we build that Evolutionary process rather than training wheels. My thinking is that they should help us along the path to a higher self, but like all ‘tools’ they are not meant to be carried on our backs once we have ‘crossed the river’, so to speak.”

Stay tuned next moon for the results of our project, ‘Dreaming with DNA’. We welcome new dreamers to join us in our adventures.

Email: explora@dreamofpeace.net
Forum: dreamofpeace.net/sealife

Interesting stuff

Perhaps I should put “Do Shrooms” on LD to-do list, could be fun.

Funny, I always thought that LD’s were far beyond any sort of hallucinogen, but what about taking them while in a dream!

If you know the effect of shrooms, then obviously you will have that effect whilst taking them in a lucid dream. Since the limits in lucid dreaming are endless, how about making the dream mushrooms 5x more potent? How about 20x? You could have the most insane trip of your life and wake up fine the next morning .

I don’t think having a psychedelic experience in a dream would ever be the same as the real thing. These chemicals, cause very marked chemical changes in the brain. Even though there are some chemical changes in the brain while dreaming, I don’t think there anywhere near as exaggerated as those caused by psychedelics. And even though the chemical changes are similar there are differences. I don’t think that taking these substances in a dream would cause these chemical changes and hence, the same effects. I have taken psychedelics in normal dreams before, but never in a lucid dream. The visual change of the environment, sound, and the body feeling were very similar to the real thing. The thinking and emotion present in a real life trip were absent however. I am curious to see how it would be in a lucid dream.

I already experienced dream-mushrooms, but not the WL ones.
It was a pretty strong experience, but more like an insane dream, not like a “real trip” (as I imagine a trip to be from talking with other people about it).

However, I think there are drugs you only stimulate your body chemical production, perhaps a dream could do the same. So, I think a trip in a dream might be possible. That wouldn´t be a lot safer than a WL trip, though.

tapir

Anything is possible in a dream, you all know that. If you were good at lucid dreaming and have had mushrooms in real life before, you could have a trip identical to one in waking life, and then make it more or less intense, whatever you desire. Your imagination is the limit

im expectng to take shrooms once this year, and only once forever. But i want to experience them in a LD first, then try the real stuff, see how it compares

I don’t think that you “taking” a pyschodelic in your dream would have to change your brain’s chemicals to make you feel like your tripping. Your dream would just alter to make it seem like you are tripping. Your brain can’t make the actual chemicals to make you trip in enough quantity(If it can make all the ones needed anyway).

I believe that the effects of any any substance can be produced in sober state with the right amount of concentration and experience.
I also believe that Lucid dreams are the most intense state of mind achievable. Certain substances may play around with the chemicals in your body, but none the less, they are still your chemicals. Nothing new is added. If you can work to rewire your brain, you may be able to summon the same effects by mere concentration.
Two things to ask you:
Wouldn’t it be amazing if the only thing these illegal drugs did was increase your patience?
Are you sure thats not the case?

A lot of effects can certainly be attributed to the increase in awareness alone. Lucid Dreaming is a similar state. While you may lucid dream an enviroment that is very similar to one you would see in normal life, in the dream you would pay much more attention, because you know it is a dream. In normal life you would just ignore it.

(Added)

I just reread your post. If I can make the walls move without injesting a psychedelic, is that not tripping?
Interesting. It seems to me much of the things that happen in a non-sober state can simply be a matter of awareness. Inconsistencies are abound in our daily lives, and in a sober state we generally ignore them. But with the use of substances, we classify things differently… almost to make them seem insignifigant.

What is the difference between tripping, and just thinking you’re tripping?
Since tripping is merely the process of alternate perceptional interpretation, I would believe there is none.

• feed_my_BRAIN

I don´t think so. Ok, perhaps not exactly psylocibin, but I am sure your brain can produce similiar substances in quantities that would make it seem similiar or even stronger.
Think of DMT, this is a very strong psychoactive substance found in different plants, but also in the human body. I am sure you can produces amounts of DMT that would make you trip, you just usually don´t.
LDing might be a technique to stimulate the production of these substances (of course there are also other techniques such as dancing, breathing, meditation…).

Seen from the scientific point of view, I don´t think that it´d be possible to experience something really triplike in a LD without stimulating the production of substances as above. Of course you can get “optics” and stuff that looks like you are tripping, but the feelings depend on your body-chemistry.
Again, this only applies when you consider the mind to be a product of the body.

Too much theory, we need someone to try it

tapir

PS: I think it´s rather unlikely that mind is a product of the body, but all other models I can come up with don´t seem to be very practical

I would not believe that the same amounts of chemicals would be necessary to produce the effects we are talking about. The brain is very sensitive during sleep, and I believe it would merely require concentration to produce certain effects. Keep in mind that any drug is merely toying with the balance of chemicals that already exist inside your system. They simply make the effects of those chemicals very very obvious. I’ll call this the “Highlighter” effect. Its like reading a page from a book, you may read that page many times, but until someone highlights a certain passage, you may not truely understand it. So say we are given the right chemical dosage every day to use towards tripping, however, we simply haven’t figured out how to do it yet.

Ugh, I’m feeling rather dazed right now, and am not writing well.
Basically, If we already have these skills available to us, and these drugs are just pointing them out, that means we already have enough chemicals in order to do these things, and so it is simply a matter of knowing what to look for.

Does anyone want to know the secret? Its so simple that no one even bothers to try it: STARE. KEEP STARING.

• feed_my_BRAIN

Heh, this can turn out to be a pretty mindblowing topic, i’ve always thought of inducing drug effects with just your mind (mind over matter baby!). I’ll start staring after im done writing this, but i think the hallucinations is just my eyes going out of focus.
Lucian, you should do them in real life first, because in your dream your brain has no idea what it would be like. No one does unless you’ve done them before, very intense!

MTKer i know it wont make the chemicals, i jsut want to compare the differences, on how far away my dream was from the real experience

Not necessarily so. I personally believe that if you read up enough, you can reproduce most of the affects of some drugs without ever having done them. However, this is a little difficult, and yes, without ever doing the substance, you’ll never know if you got it right.

I think if you keep in mind that psychedelics are not just visual… they also deal with that particularly illusive 4th demention. And it can’t be summed up with saying “4 hours went by in 4 minutes”. Its very abstract, and when you finally can explain it, no one will be able to take you seriously.
Except maybe a lucid dreamer…

• feed_my_BRAIN

This is an interesting idea. Some psychedelic substances, especially those in their natural state, contain alkaloids that make the trip unique to that of one induced by just a pure active chemical.

Take an acid flashback for example, nothing is ingested, but the mind goes back to that altered state. Is there a chemical change in the brain when this occurs? I have experienced this very mildly (nowhere close to the intensity of the real thing) but from what I’ve heard it can be pretty intense. But a trip is a full six to 12 hour journey filled with different stages and it takes that span of time to have the full experience. Maybe some of the feelings and sights can be re-created by concentrating or by dreaming. But Its hard to think that the full and same experience can be.

I have a theory that I truely honestly believe in:
Theres no such this as a flashback. This is learned behavior we are talking about. When the brain learns to think a different way, certain settings and states of mind can bring about the same abilities that were supposed to only be reserved for non-sober life. The reason science can’t figure out why flashbacks happen is because they are busy investigating the issue of drugs as an anomoly in normal life. However, just like all experiences, it should not surprise us that we can learn things from substance use, even abilities that we had not had before. Similarly, just as there is more than one way to learn any task, drugs are not a REQUIREMENT of so called “flashbacks”. In my opinion, having a flashback before ever taking one of these substances, makes the word a complete oxymoron.
I know this because I first “tripped” while sitting in a library, completely sober (Never taking a psychedelic either then or before), staring at the floor pattern. When it started moving, it was an intensely surprising experience!

Also, I agree, your mind is not going to be able to do 8 hour trip on its own. Also, At all times you would have the ability to stop tripping. Total control.

• feed_my_BRAIN

Yes, it definately is possible to “learn to be tripping”.
I can intentionally put myself in a state of mind that is quite similiar to a light weed-feeling. This is basically what I do when I practice LL , but then I don´t imagine to have smoked weed, but to be dreaming.
Placebo effect is also interesting here:
I once ate a marihuana cake. You usually got to wait at least 30 minutes to feel any effect, usually longer (more like one hour).
After only 15 minutes I felt the first effects. I was quite sure that it got to be a placebo. However, after concentrating on it they got stronger, and after some minutes I was truly convinced to be experiencing the first effects. However, they wore off some time after and started again at the expected time.
So, it really was placebo, but it was very convincing despite the fact that I knew cannabis can´t take effect that fast.

tapir

I can relate to that, sometimes when i only have a bit of weed left, i smoke it and pretend to be higher, completely exaggerating the little buzz that i have

A different way of thinking of it is this:
Being “high” is a feeling, not an tangable artifact. Thus, feeling high, and being high are the same… the only difference is how you got there.
The same thing applys with dreams. The things we experience in dreams are as real as in external reality, the only difference being how you got there.

What you’re describing is pretty good evidence of how the brain, and not the external stimulus is responsible for much of your state of mind. A good classical conditioning experiment would be every time you smoke, listen to the same song. Then one day, just listen to the song and see if it makes you high.

• feed_my_BRAIN

Yes, also have done this mrvanhelen

@feed my brain
Can only agree here.
Btw, there is a strange background-melody when the shortnews are on my favourite radio channel. I usually don´t listen to the radio, but I did after smoking weed. Now, when I hear the news on this channel it always changes my perception a bit. It´s like a trigger for LL.

A while again I had a similiar thing with tea:
Whenever I drink spicy and hot tea, it would instantly put me into a high/dreamy state of mind for some time. Had something to do with the sensation of hot water running through my body.
Now I got quite used to it, but when I concentrate on itI can still use it as a help with LL
I don´t know when it started, but I think this isn´t conditioned from times when I was high, it´s just the strangeness of the feeling

tapir