War sucks, and i hope it end soons,(those are my ideas)
BTW fabi the underachiever, YOU AVATAR Kicks Ass!(if im not allowed to say the word butt, im sorry 
)
Actually I think my avatar is kind of lame… 
But NIN are still cool. Actually I had a dream a few nights ago about listening to the new album, which of course hasn’t yet been released in RL. 
It was really impressive. A mix between ‘the big come down’, pretty hate machine and Alec Empire’s Intelligence&Sacrifice.
On-Topic: Also the US supported Hussein through the course of some of his worst atrocities… I mean, just helping him and giving him weapons/money etc. makes them guilty of terrorism.
And I don’t hate all Americans. As a matter of fact some of my best friends are US-Americans. And at least a couple of them are even more critical of US domestic and foreign policy than I am.
Another thing: Even if Bush goes to war neither for oil nor for his daddy (which isnt my favorite argument, either) there are still so many accounts of politicians going to war to distract from their bad domestic records that it sounds quite likely that Bush is doing the same thing. After all, if their’s only war and heroes and everything on the news, hardly anyone will take their time to investigate what’s going on at home. 
As many deaths perhaps but as many civilian deaths? I think that’s a key difference, the US nuked a civilian target, and whether this was the only way to end the war or not, I think the majority of people would have a moral problem with that.
I’m also troubled by the idea that it was the Japanese’s stubbornness that was responsible for them being nuked, I’d have a similar problem with a mugger blaming the victim’s stubbornness in trying to hold onto their wallet for them being shot.
I think the war itself was just, but I think the decision to destroy a civilian target with a weapon of unparalleled power to be highly questionable.
I agree with you about Bush though, I think it’s too simplistic to believe it’s just about oil, or a present for daddy. Still, the timing is strange, why now? And it’s a little two-faced. We think Iraq might have weapons of mass destruction so we plan on invading, we know North Korea has weapons of mass destruction so we’re using diplomacy?
fabi the underachiever wrote
If you go to this site you will find a looong list of German companies who
helped supply Iraq’s military through the years,https://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/index.html
Also, could you elaborate on which Americans you do hate?
Anything Balck and red labeled NIN kicks ass!(even though im sure there’s better logo’s out in the internet world) there arent many avatars like that. Btw, good point about the new ablum, i dont think i can wait any longer(even though i am) for it, but I think maybe the new sound will be like more instrumental type sound like with regualr instruments, the only reason why i think that, b/c from the last little re-mix ablum “Still” was all filled with harmonic sounds of the piano and some acoustic sounds too. 
But the ambient sounds of Industrail was always good to hear to 
O-yeah sticking to the Subject, Ahh… war sucks and im staying with my old opinon. Thats it 
Well, what is your point? I never claimed that Germany didn’t support Iraq. Of course the US did to a greater extent… There are other examples of terrorism in the name of the US and Germany, too. Just take Turkey… The US is (or was) the nation selling the most weapons to Turkey, with Germany on second place. Those weapons were used against Turkish people (Kurds etc.) so that is another case of the US and Germany being involved in terrorist activities.
When I said I didn’t hate all Americans I meant that i don’t hate ‘all Americans’. Meaning, there are probably none that I could think of that I hate. And even if there were Americans it would because of what they have done, not because of where they were born. Do you think I’m that stupid - stupid enough to hate Americans just because they’re Americans? Do you think I’m a patriot or something ugly like that?
I hope you don’t.
Peace,
Fabi
Im an American 
…O-well fabi the underachiever… Hate is just a short cut of thinking, especially if your points arent that valid 
first of all my points were indeed valid,or at least no one has proven me wrong, yet, and second, I said in the above post that
I CAN’T think of any Americans that I hate. ie I don’t hate any Americans.
And, as I already said, if I hated anyone it would NOT be because of where they were born or their religion or their skin color or their money, but because they have done something as an individual that strikes me as wrong.
So that, I guess, was just a misunderstanding. 
(I hope you actually read this post… I wouldn’t want you to think that I hate you… 
)
I loved ‘still’, the last NIN stuff you were talking about. I listen to parts of it just about every day. I especially like the last two tracks.
I really hope they’re doing some nice instrumentals for the new album. Although in the few statements about the new album they said it was going to be more raw, aggressive and electronic. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I just hope there are some quiet pieces on the album, too. 
Fabi
Fabi wrote
My point is, and will be, a clear and equal representation of the facts.
Thats all.
OKie Dokie, I think i understand the complication now, and i understand the opinon of what you were saying at that time.
Well NIN always has some quiet moments on almost every ablum, so i think we might get one or two.
O-yeah…War Sucks 
So that is what that little red guy is saying.
I Thought it was oh boy, oh boy, oh boy.
good one. 
Lot’s of good points.
I think one of the things that accounted for so many civilian deaths were side effects of a nucelar attack that we weren’t aware of at the time. The main concern about deciding whether to invade or nuke Japan was the the amount of american deaths. An invasion would result in a massive loss life for America. I guess the government was more concerned about the american soldiers than the japanese civilians. It’s arguable about who needs more protection. At the time, a lot of people thought all the japanese were evil (i.e. the internment camps) so the decision was pretty one-sided.
The reason we are trying for diplomacy in North Korea and not Iraq is because it has a better chance or working in North Korea. We’ve tried talking and the inspections in Iraq, but very little progress has been made from it. Last I heard about North Korea was that they and South Korea have been trying to get back together for a long time (That’s why they participated in the 2002 Olympics under the name Korea). That would be a much better solution than war and it’s also realistic. All the talk about North Korea contemplating attacking America is because the North Korean leader (I forget his name) is extremely confrontational and very afraid that North Korea is next after Iraq.
Oh yeah, congratulations everyone. This is probably the first thread about international conflicts i’ve seen on the internet that didn’t immediately turn into an argument with people bashing and slandering eachothers countries.
Yes i think it’s very civilized. I go on a bus to school and there are about 30 people with about 15-20 different nationalities. (i go to a very multicultural school) and i am surprised at the amount of rasism is said to one another (they don’t say it too harshly and the people only take it lightly). I think its sad that the world can’t just work out their differences rationally and peacefully.
Yeah. The US should leave Saddam alone. They should have left Hitler alone too. After all, Hitler never attacked the U.S. until after we attacked him. Oh, and while we’re at it, the US should never have pursued S.D.I. (and therewith brought about an end to the Soviet Union) because hey, the Soviets never attacked the U.S. either.
Okay, now for my real thoughts…
Unfortunately, the world is governed by the aggressive use of force. It is a horrible, sad fact. If the men and women who love freedom do not present a unified, capable military front, then the despots of the world will aggressively seek to rule the aforementioned. Saddam proved it by attacking Kuwait, the Soviets proved it repeatedly. Hitler proved it blatantly and repeatedly. The old Japanese Empire proved it. Militant and Radical Islamic Jihadists prove it even now. Despots throughout history have proven that the enemies of freedom will always put power before humanity.
Some have said that the US should have a pacafist president. Pacafist comes from the root ‘pacify’ which means to appease. Those who sought to appease despots such as Hitler (remember ‘Peace in Our Time’, the wonderful treaty Hitler signed just before attacking Europe?) were proven wrong, and if given the opportunity to succeed, those who seek to appease Hussein will be proven wrong. Appeasement has no effect on a despot because a despot has one goal: domination at any cost. A despot does not value human life. The countries in which most all of you live are more or less free. Your governments, for the most part, value human life. Which of you has lived under the ravages of a madman such as Saddam?
Is Bush 100% just, forthright, and honest? I don’t know. Maybe not. He wasn’t my first choice for US president, to be sure. Has the US made some stupid diplomatic choices in the past century? Absolutely. But at this point in history, is it worth the risk to sit back and wait, hoping that Hussein won’t attack anyone or give chemical, nuclear, or biological weapons to Al Quaida? I think not.
Two years ago I would have been completely against any military action against Iraq. But two years ago I lived in innocence, and had no idea what it meant for my friends and neighbors to be senselessly killed by terrorists. But even if Saddam were never going to give his weapons to terrorists, and even if he never attacked Israel again (a humorous ‘if’) and even if he never again attempted to ‘annex’ Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, I would still be for removing him. Why? Because I have recently started to learn what is happening to innocent Iraqis every day at the hand of Saddam’s regime.
But, you might say, what’s worse? getting killed by Saddam or getting killed by a US bomb? When my country was in it’s infancy, Patrick Henry, one of our founders said, “I know not what course others may follow, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death.” And even if some would choose life over liberty, I can all but personally gaurantee you that the US will not kill 2 million innocent muslims as Hussein has already done.
I don’t want a war. I wish Saddam Hussein would simply leave or disarm, and take away any pretext for a US attack on Iraq. I hope it still happens. I PRAY it still happens. But if it does not, I pray that the loss of innocent life is minimal, and that the battle ends quickly so that the people of Iraq can taste freedom for the first time in most of their lives, and so that we, the evil, wicked, oppressive americans can rebuild that country with our money and allow it’s people to thrive and breathe free air as free men and women.
I honestly believe that many world leaders want the US to fail because they are resentful of the fact that the US has not yet converted to socialism. I believe that in the case of the French and Russians, they want Saddam in power because of their multiple billions of dollars in oil interests in Iraq. I believe the Chinese want the US to fail because they envy the US position as a superpower, and want to join the US in that status. Are any of these bad or illigitimate reasons? Perhaps to some degree, perhaps not. But summarily dismissing the US position as being ‘all about oil’ is crass. Is oil a factor? Absolutely. Is it the major factor? Well, ask the poor, enslaved, oppressed, often tortured Iraqi people whether they give a damn WHY they have been freed once it’s all over.
It’s easy for us to sit in front of our computers in our first world, rich countries and pontificate about the evils of war. I wonder how easy it is for the oppressed to live from day to day wondering whether they will be killed for merely offering a viewpoint that opposes Saddam Hussein.
I respect all opinions, and I know that both sides are passionate about theirs. If you disagree with me, thank GOD IN HEAVEN (if you believe there is one) that you have the freedom to do so.
Just that made me upset, The Usa should of Left Hitler Alone!, I cant belive what people think these days. So are you all about burning people too?(just to keep in Mind, wasnt Hitler going for Black people next??)
You do know that the UN (and thus the US) is partly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of in iraq due to their sanctions, right? Saddam is far less dangerous now, than he was when the US supported him during his atrocities.
Do you really think the US want peace and democracy? Why then did they wage a terrorist war on Nicaragua, why did they go into Vietnam? Just so I am not being misunderstood here, I am NOT talking about ‘mistakes’. Those were deliberate and deadly choices, and the ‘intervention’ in Nicaragua for example has never been regreted. People are still just as proud of it as ever.
Of course I agree that Saddam is probably as evil as they come, but I doubt that the US have any interest in the people of Iraq. They didn’t care about them till now, even charged people who brought much needed medicine into Iraq, what does that tell you? I am not even generally against helping the people of Iraq by use of force, but I am really not convinced.
Fabi
He was being sarcastic.
Except when Saddam invaded Kuwait we did present a unified front, and now he no longer presents a similar kind of threat. I think the comparison to Hitler is weak, Hitler invaded Poland, France, and pushed through Europe. Iraq has been militarily impotent for the last decade, crippled by sanctions. There is nothing to suggest that Iraq suddenly poses a danger now that he hasn’t for the last twelve years.
We simply can’t have a situation where pre-emptive strikes against any state is justified on the basis that they might pose a threat at some point in the future.
Al-Qaida, not Iraq. No link has ever been proven and so they should be treated as separate ‘threats’, otherwise there’s a danger of lumping any undesireable international situation under the title ‘War on Terror’ in order to facilitate action in the wake of 9/11.
The UN estimates as many as half a million civilian casualties due to a war in Iraq. Half a million! In a country where more than half of the population is under 15 years old.
Of course there’s no ultimate difference in being killed by Saddam or the US, but the latter would be on our heads, it’d be a result of needless military action on our part.
And no, 2 million innocent muslims wouldn’t die, but is that really a good justification for war? “We wouldn’t kill quite as many people as he has”?
The world is full of dictators, full of countries in which people are oppressed, or tortured for speaking out against the regime. But we, the West, are not the world’s policeman. We can’t stride round the world knocking everyone into shape, denying anyone the right to create weapons that we’ve had for decades, we have to use diplomacy to alter regimes we object to, military action should only be applied when there is a specific threat to us or where major international instability is threatened. Pre-emptive strikes against Iraq fall into neither of these categories.
Although that’s precisely what you’ve done with the position of the French and Russians.
So who’s next after Iraq? North Korea? Syria? Sudan? Any of the other right-wing dictatorships who aren’t threatening us but potentially could do in the future?
I completely agree that the situation for the people of Iraq is deplorable, Saddam is a cruel dictator and his exile should be called for, I simply don’t believe that invasion is warranted.