the BIG Shared Dreaming Topic

there’s also no scientific evidence proving otherwise either - To the believer to proof is neccessary, to the non-believer no proof is possible.

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The only thing i can say is; Closed minds that chose not to believe things are possible are always right, because they will never experience it as they chose not to. Those who remain open minded to new possibilities, leave themselves open to new experiences and new possibilities. Leaving us with the true believers, who will eventually prove, to themselves at least, that they were right to believe - yet even if they don’t experience it doesn’t matter they will still believe.

That’s true in a lot of cases, but I think the 2 categories more appropriately represent: “relying on proven physical properties”, and “deluding yourself”. To say you believe in something, yet never experience it, isn’t being open minded. It’s being delusional.

I’m not really closed-minded, and very little would make me happier than to hear that some scientist has discovered a part of the human brain that WOULD make shared dreaming possible. I’d quickly change my view on the subject, and do what I could to develop it. The difference is though, I wait for there to be at least some stable possibility before I begin to accept it. I don’t blindly follow anything, which is what ‘being open minded’ is apparently all about.

There’s nothing wrong with opening yourself up to a possibility. It certainly is a more healthy way to live than simply dismissing everything and hiding from any evidence that subtly suggests that it might actually exist.

man, don’t get me wrong, i want to belive. but even if i tell myself i believe it, i know inside that it’s not.

Atheist has the following statement:

This statement seems a paradox to me. In science a paradox is not done. But i belive in the strenght of a paradox thats why i am sometimes sceptic about scientific evidence and scientific inquiry. Thus is that not some sort of illusion to.

Further: believing opens maybe a door for inquiry. You have a vision and go to discover it. Thats maybe the only thing you can trust, your own discoveries.
But i agree you must be very careful in believing to much, then you can drown in the purple world of illusion.

My personal opinion is that this issue relates with telepathy and maybe other areas (holistic view). I have often telepathy with my girlfriend. I must explore it more, but it seems to me like a fact. Stupid things, expectations and ideas we share over big distances.

A other thing is when i sit next to somebody and think about sexual things that person reacts significant, maybe a clue.
A other thing is eye contact. When you look to a person over a distance of 20 meters and you can see his or her eyes and he or she cannot see yours. You can see them flicker. We feel when somebody look.

I must confess i don’t have enormous experiences with lucid dreaming. Thus this are general remarks. Hopefully they are constructive.

Sorry for my insufficient englisch

i dont know, it sounds weird…but that what i thought about lucid dreaming in the start.
sciense is just a idea, a sytem based on what we know now. and honestly, how much do we know now? do we know anything, is the system totally wrong (like are really everything made out of atoms…to be basic) lets say we know 0.000^0.1 % of everything (ok i know you cant know anything…or can you, anyway…) based on this we can be pretty sure that our sciense is wrong, but hey, you have to start somewhere.
so this system is very easy to understand, like if a glass fall to the ground the sciense say, the wind blew it down, easy right? but then some hippie says no it was my dead mother who broke it couse she was angry…its a bit harder to believe but just becaouse its harder dont mean its the right one…when things start to move around the sciense cand explain it, but the hippie can…just a thought

I don’t have time to read this whole thing, but I have a link to contribute:

psipog.net/show.php?id=16

It gives a method for dreamwalking, or entering someone else’s dream.

I don’t see how that quote is a paradox. It’s basically saying that if you don’t believe you can do something, then you probably can’t - just because you have constructed a barrier in your mind which is hard to overcome. If you do believe you can do something (provided that your objective is actually possible) then you’ll give yourself the strength to do it just by believing you can. It makes complete sense when talking about lucid dreaming, so that’s why I display it.

mindexplorer:

I don’t think you can actually define science in that way. Honestly, it’s not accurate to just say “there are 10,000 things to know about the world, and we know 5 of them”. It doesn’t work that way. There are basic fundamentals of life that we were VERY fast to pick up and examine. These include:

-Particle interaction with relativity to speed resulting in collision (slamming your head into a tree hurts).
-Gravity. This was puzzling for a while, but eventually we were able to determine that large bodies of matter attract each other.
-Construct of light. It wasn’t easy to analyze, but eventually we found that light moves at a measurable speed, and so much actually be a type of particle.

I could go on, but that’s not the point. The point is that these are the most obvious fundamentals of physics, and are common enough to be examined and tested in every situation so we can learn how to predict these forces for the purpose of staying alive. Once we have a good understanding of how a particular element of physics works, we can then use it to our advantage - for example, you wouldn’t be reading this right now unless we had examined the nature of electricity and learned how to use it to our advantage.

You’re basically saying that it’s possible everything we know about science is wrong, or that we know so little that it’s worth disregarding altogether. This is just plain silly. We know an extraordinary amount about the physical world - and it’s extremely rare that something will happen that we can’t attribute to a previously examined physical parameter. If an object falls from a table, science can say “Well, vibrations in the table could have led to the object moving towards the edge and falling. Alternatively, the wind which is still apparent now that I take notice, could also have blown the object off the edge.” A ‘hippie’ (as you put it) might instead look at it and say “A ghost pushed it, as a reminder that I haven’t been smoking enough pot lately. Alternatively, it’s a sign from God that I am special in some way.” One of those conclusions has at least SOME realistic supporting evidence.

Science wasn’t intended as an alternative to religion. It was intended to develop an understanding of the way things work. Disproving popular religion just kinda happened on the way by accident. Not our fault.

Im going slightly off topic here but, could shared LD’s be an experience on the astral plane? apparently the astral plane can be manipulated much like an LD, erm, so what im saying is that the 2 people are having an OBE and this experience triggers another plane in which is there domain to master.
Did that make sense? it’s hard to put into words

BTW: How has science disproved religion? Do you mean about the theory of evolution? or as to how the universe was created?
Anyway I think that science is a good thing because it helps us understand stuff (Man im all over the place today )

Science doesn’t disprove religion in general, but notice how I said popular religion. Such ideas as the global flood, the creation of humans only 6 thousand years ago, evolution, and so on. Let’s be serious here for a moment, those claims are all entirely worthless now. Evolution is a well-established fact, and various other elements of common creationist ideals are flawed.

Anyway, that’s probably as much as I’m going to contribute to this thread. Just my view, in case anyone wants to read it.

Science is just one way of discribing probing the universe there are many others like art which value human experience etc etc. I love science though its a system able to be understood by any race/religion and language and is as impartial as you can get (sometimes).

I always think of science in terms of its unveiling of the truth and how that can really turn views on there heads.

Take Atheist gravity, originally not even thought of as it was just assumed thats what happens. Then Newton tells us that gravity pulls objects to the earth and science assumes gravity has invisible waves of force.

Then Einstien says that time and space cannot be separated and that the earth is actually warping space time, giving rise to gravity. Science now thinks its gravity is working via a type of particle not yet discovered (the graviton)

Then science finds out that the mass of the earth or any other large body is not giving the theoretical force of gravity they would predict. That is untill some clever clogs realises that there are other universes (or branes) that lie in higher dimentions and hug our own like a glove that can explain the faulty figures.

And so on and so on and so on…

Each observation is right at the time it was made because theory or mesurement was not able to probe further and when it did it can be seen that the old theory was only the starting pice in the jigsaw.

issc-taste.org/main/netresources.shtml

This is a cool website for scientists to talk about their own ideas or actual experinces of psi etc without proffessional critism. Its hard to over estimate what a ruined reputation can do for a scientist if they voiced their views in academic circles.

This kind of preducice comes not just from the scientific establishment but also from websites like this or others with many people who have a belief in path not uncovered (or uncoverable) by science. Both sides can get too intrenched in there own camp and are not able to see the others point of view.

You are right. I make a quick judgment. Stupid!! It is not a paradox but a tautological statement.

My supplement is a ‘relative’ theoretical one:

I believe in science to. it is a very interesting practice. It generates in my opinion metaphors to communicate and to understand the world. I could be written in any language; mathematics, in logical constructs, physical laws, fairy tails, symbols etc.
But when you talk about light, you talk about vibration and/or about particles. Both are very different concepts, although they are combined in the concept of light.

Science is then relative, the same as the description off relativity in the relativity theory. And this is also a relative statement or not? But to make it relative you need at least two points. They are related in a specific moment (a). And specific moment (a) is related with a other specific moment (b). You get a matrix of interconnected relativities at a supposed level Y. The relativities in level Y relates to a level Z. From level Z you can understand de basic structure of Y. But you can’t understand how it relates to Z, because you are in Z. You need a meta level X to understand how Y relates to Z and Z to Y.

Its only a concept in specific form to get grip of the world. Maybe it is pure bullshit. But that’s relative. For me this form is a tool to understand on this specific moment aspects of the world.

Relevant in this line of thought is: What is the thing that facilitates this kind of levels. Is that something in the mind of Aristotle; the prime mover:

“Then there is also something which moves it. And since that which is moved while it moves is intermediate, there is something which moves without being moved: something eternal which is both substance and actuality”

Or is this a explanation with a taboo connotation, and is it better to talk about actual science, for example in the form of Computational equivalence formulated by Stephen Wolfram wolfram.com/webresources.html
and this but you need quick time player (see apple) the principle is this
gallery.wolfram.com/images/Animations/3/Rule30
gallery.wolfram.com/images/Anima … rabolDodec

He discovered in his book a New Kind of science the principle of computational equivalence. All kinds of processes are formulated in computational terms. For example simple rules that generates all kinds of patterns, randomness, nested, biological patterns etc etc.
Wolfram thinks that:

“And what this suggests is that a fundamental unity exist across a vast range of processes in nature and elsewhere: despite all their detailed differences every process can be viewed as corresponding to a computation that is ultimately equivalent in its sophistication.”

But all this bla bla leads far from the point made, namely is contact between lucid dreamers possible.

That’s why I go on:

When you see the mind as a electromagnetic matrix. Then it interacts with other electromagnetic fields. A flower sends electromagnetic energy, maybe trough vibration the result is that the brain receives something at a level Y, but level Y is only the physical matrix. Now it must relates to level Z to become conscious, this could be the conscious matrix. This matrix is build one thousands of thoughts and memories. But we cannot experience all. That’s why we need some intention to make clear what we want to make clear, for example the flower.

Suppose a level LD were it is possible to be conscious about a dream. You can use the same tool, namely intention. Maybe it is possible to have a intention in a LD level to make contact to a other LD dreamer. The other LD dreamer must have the same intention, that is to make contact. That’s the whole crux when do we have the same intention, when we are at the same level at suppose the same time.

The LD level is very fluid one you can transport for example very fast. It could be that over great distances the LD level facilitates communication, because it is electromagnetic energy. But only without significant resistance. When dreamer B don’t want to make contact with A, contact is impossible. When dreamer B is awake and dreamer A want to make contact, he maybe have telepathic contact, but dreamer B must be level without to much resistance. Maybe LD dreamers reinforce each other when they are at a certain level. The same as in physics… I forgot the terminology…

I am empty now, it becomes to unclear. Hopefully it is constructive and readable…….

wow i tell ya what that help a lot, i wasnt gonna say any of that cause i thought no 1 would get it, i know i bearly do, but you are right. Many time i have thought about being on the same level at the same time, but as far as i know, and from what i have read, time is not counted in dreams, Nor is space. And mybe we are all doing it right now on a level we are unaware of. i mean in my lucid dreams i can feel every on and everything as a part of myself, but on a few occassions i have been unbale to feel certian people. and on this occassion that i will tell, it lead me to belive time has no effect on dreams and sharded dreaming is possibile.

ths is only a small part and i am very tird and about to go to be so soz bout the spelling

“i walk into a bike shop and there are two guys standinga t the back of the store, they are talkign quitly, i have come here because i am way outside my city and need to get back to get to school in time (this was when i first started college and if we missed the first day we were stuffed) any way, they start to look up to m and i sence somthing from them, something not me. ( wow really hitting the mem here) they sak me somthin like “finily come back to us Richard?” i ahve no idea what they are talking about and say “no i am here for a bike, got any for $10” they smile and say quietly to each other “he doesnt remember” the other says “he will dont worry, it will come back to hima dn then it will be like the old days, just give him time” the other smiles and looks at me, i am total confused the man shows me some bikes for like $100 and i shake my head. i leave feeling very confused. ask i exit the door i hear them talkignquietly saying “he will come back into his power dont worry” i exit and see a big macdonnalds (they are everywhere even in my dream )
there are a lot of people here and i can feel them all, i can feel the sun and the light and i become lucid and notice that i couldnt feel the ttwo men in the shop, they seem distant very far away, bu i know them…”

yer so i now belive it can be done. i cant tell u how i know these men or why but i do. anyway i hope that helped lighten the idea around here and jump off science for a bit but as it is said “science doesnt have all teh answers, but what does” we dont know as much as we think and we could know a lot more if we tryed, thats why i am never going to give up on this. never

Richard

sometimes i wonder if dreams aren’t just thoughts inside ur head, but sort of a “world” or “internet” of dreams, so i’m sure its possible 2 have shared dreaming. Why not??? It’s a shaky subject tho bcuz if u aren’t lucid you might not be able to communicate with somebody u know and if one of u doesn’t remember the dream, how would u ever know what really happened?

once you go lucid it’s kinda hard not to remember it…

i beg to differ on that, i have forgotten a few ld, i hate my self for it but i just know i had it i just cant remember what i did.

oh, well everyone i know says that they can remember their LD’s down to almost every detail, and I remember all of mine, then again i’ve only had three, but it just seems to me that these things would kinda get stuck in your head.

well i have had a few, and they to me sometimes are like ordaniary dreams, i wake than fall asleep and only remember a small part of the ld but others i remember so well it takes and hour and a hlaf to write down lol

Richard

my statement to the science thingy:
“if i can’t see it, i don’t believe it” - famous sentence eh?

my (our?) western view of the world is dominated by science.

development of machnies and chemical stuff is the result

develompmet of the mind? erm… not really existant.

so really many things 'bout mind and sprit are hard to accept for may of us

imagine, some native farmer, living his life like it was 100’s of years ago, not knowing bout electricity… and you come over and say: here, this thing is called mobile phone, you can talk to anybody around the world. do you think he would believe?

so few people say : but you can make believe him! just let him talk to somebody!

but is it that easy? think 'bout the fact, he self has to switch it on, to dial a number, find out witch way to hold it.
he will say you are crazy, and continue to work on his field : )