Big Psionics Topic

Akira, I think you need to ponder what ‘proof’ actually is, and what merits a study to be concluded as ‘fact’. In essence, we need the ability to physically witness the cause and subsequent eventualities of any concept before we can claim that it’s fact. When it comes to psionics, we simply don’t have the means (at this stage) to properly identify the cause of the event – hence, we can’t conclude it to be fact.

Sure, in experimental conditions we might be able to watch what appears to be a display of psionics. We might even be unable to develop an alternate theory, but we still haven’t actually seen the affecting source of the display, so we simply can’t conclude anything.

It’s a larger display of narrow-mindedness to conclude without evidence, than it is to dismiss despite any.

well put. but what if we were to do it under experimental conditions. no exertnal vriables or anything like that. and we did it a few times. any way i am not asking to be proved to the world but mostly just to us here. i actally think you shouldnt let the whole world know. danger is only there. but yes you are right. proof is gonna be hard to nail down but evidence that it might be possible will def be shown.

They did say they had the psiwheel behind airtight glass… but the proof’s not being shown to me so screw it. I’m giving up on psipog. One paranormal anomaly at a time, please. (Lucid dreaming)

:eek:
What a kickass quote. Surely you wouldn’t mind if I sent it to my english teacher for our “Quote of the Day”…

We can conduct an experiment as many times as we like, and even if the results never change, the fact remains we can’t actually see the involved stimulus at a low-enough level to form any conclusions. For most people, that’s enough to believe that it actually works. In the eyes of science though, we absolutely need a definitive cause before we can accept the phenomenon as fact and begin experimenting with it.

No scientist is going to think you’re an idiot for believing people can bend physics with their mind - they’re just going to ask you for proof beyond simply watching it happen. They need to see the cause behind it, otherwise you could speculate any number of possibilities and none of them could technically be ‘wrong’.

Pretend you casually observed an object lifting from the ground, floating to a clearly intentional destination, then setting itself back down facing upright. Like most people, you’d be quick to assume a ghost did it, or some spirit was responsible. There is nothing wrong with either of those 2 conclusions, but at the same time, there is no evidence for it. Maybe an alien used technology beyond our understanding to move the object for its own amusement. Perhaps a strange shift in the Earth’s magnetic field coincidentally caused it to arc uncontrollably to its new location. It doesn’t matter how many explanations I create, the point is that no evidence has been provided to single out a particular one.

It’s not a matter of “eliminate all the options until only one’s left” (which usually results in what we call ‘paranormal’ activity). Instead, from a research viewpoint, if no indication of cause can be found, we just can’t go any further with it. We’re not denying it’s existence, but we sure as hell don’t try to explain it, either. Basically, there could be countless explanations for your psionics theory, it’s just that none of them provide anything substantial we can use to further our research.

Infection: It was a little spare-of-the-moment, but sure, do what you want with it. :smile:

Atheist…Psionics has been proven to a very high point in Russia, so its not exactly a phenomena anymore. Read the book “Psychic discoveries: Behind the Iron Curtain” to learn more about the russian’s scientific tests done to prove psi. dont let its title fool you, it is far from anything resembling an x-files report. Plus all of its information can be credited and proven as true, thanks to its lengthy bibliography.

Im not sure if what i just typed can be used againt me or for me, and i dont even know if it really matters or if anyone even cares, but it is quite interesting, no?

Anyway, im gald that you held up your part of the deal, Timeless, as i intend to do the same with mine. Like i said, ill try to get the movie up as soon as possible, although where i am going to get sand is a complete mystery to me.

Any suggestions would help, :happy:

If you’re evil you could take one from the local playground.

If you’re not evil, a landscaping/gardening shop would porbably have some

Hi,
i’m new to the forum, yet to have my first LD or OBE,
but i can vouch for Psi (chi, ki, qi)…
ever heard of Tai chi, chi kung, tai chi chuan, tajiquan(same thing) or aikido?
…all originally based on what we refer to as psi

i’ve read the book ‘Psychic discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain’
It’s definitely worth checking out!!
also there are many references to active use of psi in japanese and chinese history…
read about Master Ueshiba Morihei the creater of Aikido,
he was able to remain passive, standing and smiling, while 10 men used all their strength trying to push him over(without success)
he also showed psychic skills, through reading minds and sensing future movements of the opposition
Aikido is based upon harmony between man and Ki…
BUT, modern aikido has turned a little more towards sport and western thinking, however there are still many practitioners of the traditional way…

I myself have found psiballs (also a technique in tai chi chuan and chi gung) quite easy and have had two successful attempts at spinning the psiwheel, and a few psychic experiences…

just give it a try…i was lucky, in that i was successful the first time i tried a psiball, but seriously it’s surprisingly easy!!
but remember: ‘believe you can or don’t, either way you’re right’
once you feel it, you KNOW there’s more to this life…

Cheers!! :wink:

more interesting info:

the russians developed a method of photographing psi/auras called a ‘kirlian photograph’ they made amazing discoveries like seeing the energy ‘erupt’ from a healers hands as they focused on healing someone,
and detecting ailments by looking at auras way before doctors detected any sign of flu, cancer… or anything!

something else they discovered was that energy flows out through energy ‘veins’ or points around the body…

…the exact same points the chinese accurately mapped out years ago
that are used in acupuncture!!!

cool huh? :wink:

chi swordsman: i have too seen these photos they are interesting but there has been very little to do with them. to my knolage. after they were taken. and as for the auras? well i saw these photos and they really dont look a great deal like an aura, in my eyes anyway. maybe everyone is diffrent. but they are great to see and i did learn a lot about it.
As for the abiltiy to read minds and the abilty to predict what the fighters move will be, mostly this can come from a great deal of experince in fighting. a small twitch of the eye or arm could mean one thing and a slight twitch of the index finger could mean another, our cons mind cant see these well but our sub cons can and this is how many people claim to read minds but are really just reading signals.

now after saying all that there have been a lot of cases that these words cant explain so it leaves to option quite open to mind reading. which i presonal belive is possible. i just choose to look at both sides the same.

and welcome to the forum as well.

Atheist: no experiment can ever be truly 100% true. no matter waht there will always be somthing that doesnt quite fit into the pattern. but as for the experiment here, there is not a great deal that we can do. if you do something over and over again. ie. tuen the key to start a car, and this works for many diffrent cars, you start to belive that turning a key will start all cars on the main this is we have come to belive. but there will always be the time when it doesnt happen. are we to say, taht off that, there might be a force that is stopping us from starting the car. sure we could look to the simple things, ie the battery is dead. the wires are stuffed i could go on. or we could say taht the magnetic forces from the earth is causeing the trouble. all of these could be valid.

but there is a way to figure out wht is really happening. by using experimental conditions. we could for example take the car where the earth will not interfer with the starting of it or we could clean the sparks, or we could change the battery. all of these would lead us to conclude that the battery was the thing at fault not the others.

the same can be done with anything. if we have two or three groups. oje group uses a boul with their experiment. the other uses a air tight container is a complealty non magnetic room, with no way of anything affecting the paper in anyway. and the last group just do it any where.

all three groups would do the same thing, or at least attempt it. this would prove that no external infulences have been made, or have been. also the people in the groups should chnge to see if the people make a diffrence with telk.

granted we cant do the air tight one but we can do the bowl and the open area. if this is the best that we can do . then it is the best that we can do. ofcourse i would prefer live stream then not, as that way we could really be sure there has been do dig enhancement to it. but some hhow i dont think we can.

if we wanted to go further we could attach brain scans to the subject and record all them as well. but seeing that this is not a prove to the world as i stated before. then we do not need to do any of that.

Like i said. if he cheats he is only lying to him self. we will all be able to see if it has been tampered with or not

In the end it is still up to the viewer if the choose to belive it or not. and i my self will probally still keep open mindd and no totaly belive it untill i can prove it to my self. but that is just what i have to do.

if this goes ahead, which i hope it does, is there any possiblites of doing it more then once? just for the sake of argument.

now after that long message, i hope i didnt talk in circles too much.

Peace out

Richard

That’s right, only in this particular example we can actually open up the car, examine the wiring and discover exactly how the car starts, or why it doesn’t. Currently we don’t have any means to ‘open’ up the mind and see exactly what protocol allows this apparent psionic behavior. All we can do is watch it happen, because we simply don’t understand enough about the mind.

For that reason, we can’t chalk it up as fact. As I said before, whenever you can’t see the cause of a particular event, it leaves an infinite number of explanations. Nothing here provides enough incentive for me to suspect psionics is in effect.

Okay, status report:

Ive got an empty jelly jar, but im having trouble getting the labels off, any homegrown tips would help.

They sell sand in huge 5 dollar bags nearby, so thats an option. Although i think there may be some sand around the baseball field nearby…

As for the camera, i have two options: either…

A) I use my friends eye cam recorder thingy and get a medium-quality shot. This way, i can get the file straight to the computer with no mess. But the vision quality would be a bit unsatisfactory…

B) I use my friends high-quality camcorder and get a nice, clean shot. Only problem with that is, i have no idea how to get it on to my computer after that, as it uses tapes to record.

Any more help would be great right now, but all is looking pretty good for saturday/sunday’s debut (heh). Until next time…

I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about (sleepy, no time to even skim those lengthy posts) but-

For that jar… got any rubbing alcohol? If not, I guess a bit of (thicker) soapy water might do it… just have to scrape it a lot though. Not scrape, but rub around with hands.

For that hi-quality thing… if you don’t have one of those new vid cards that support TV in/out, you’re probably going to have to find some expensive-ass device. So better go with that medium quality shot.

infection, for what its worth, thanks. hope you get some rest soon.

ill have to try that soap thing soon. :happy:

best to soak it in that soap water for a while. It’s 9:00 and I’m not in bed yet. This is going to stink, because I’m checking out erowid and it’s gonna drag me all the way to 11:00. I explore the web too much. :tongue:
Well, happy psiwheeling/whatever you’re going to do to that sand!

yeah, noticing a fighter intends to do something by recognizing body movement is a big part of it, but as a martial artist i’ve gotta say there’s a lot of cases where that doesn’t explain it, at some point ‘feeling thoughts’ comes into it…
also, most martial arts try to hide the intended movement by minimising any body action that could give them away…

how many of the people here claiming there’s no evidence of psi have actually tried a psiball??
it’s seriously easy, you’ll probably get something in the first few trys…

personally i don’t believe in psi 100%, but i don’t believe in anything 100%!! :tongue:

it could be biofeedback or something else that is fooling us…but the point is a lot of people can feel ‘something’…

as for telekinesis…i find it hard to believe anyone can NOT consider it probable truth…
with all the known cases of it, lab tests included(and just think of the one’s that were never heard of!) , it’s like not believing aliens probably exist…

just IMO :wink: :peek:

hmmm good answer. i am too felt somthing with psi although i have always been able to do this so i am not sure if what i am doing is anything out of the norm. it is smart to not belive in somthin 100% keeps ur options open.

Granted Atheist i will take your post and give no argument . i agree with you.

I believe that psionic is possible, calling ‘ki’ a ruse upset me a bit, since that’s the label I’ve been using for spiritual energy, but whatever. I don’t think it’s as easy as you’re making it sound, either, but I still believe it’s possible. My only real beef is with some of the “science” being described here.
1.) The bowl does not hold the water together. Surface tension caused by real, measureable, electromagnetic forces does. The same for our bodies. Even if we could not see the bowl, we still could detect the forces and measure the forces. And they would be proved to provide all the necessary force to hold the water in place. Same with our bodies. There’s no ‘missing force’ that science hasn’t discovered that’s ‘mysteriously’ holding us together. Electron microscopes and particle accelerators proved those theories years ago.
2.) A paper on a pin in a jar can be moved by sunlight. They sell them at museums. It usually looks like a weather vane, with different colored sides, but it’s the same idea, any photons (quanitative ‘pieces’ of light) in the room can kick off the paper with enough force to get it in motion. And, a magnet can also affect it, although not noticably, or controllably. There’s also gravity to think about (all objects have it.) I’ve seen an experiment with two hanging bowling balls, attracting eachother purelly by gravity.
3.) ‘Proof’ is not a list of books that the scientific community does not aknowldege, as credible. I’m not saying they’re not, but you have to tailor your show to your audience.
4.) Russia is one of the biggest countries on the planet. :read:

princeton.edu/~pear/2.html
Princeton university is the only place doing research that is worth anything at the moment.

You can’t prove psi with any sort of spoon bending and pin wheel spinning (any half ass magician can do these tricks) pure science only understands pure science.

By the way all the cold war research is debunked, the Russian book may tell of true psi abilities but the science was flawed which is why it is not accepted today.

dreamofpeace.net/sealife/viewtopic.php?t=546 this is my take on extended human abilities on the sealife forum.

"In unattended calibrations these sophisticated machines all produce strictly random outputs, yet the experimental results display increases in information content that can only be attributed to the influence of the consciousness of the human operator. "

Now, that’s what I call evidence. :thumbs:
Also suggests why some people have bad luck with computers!
“I hate this POS!” :angry:
“well, if you were nice to it, it would probably behave better.” :angel_fly:
I find it’s true.

Archrin your in okinawa Japan?

P.s you wouldn’t beleive how many computer I ****up just by being round them, my own computer I had to encase and all sorts to stop it going on the fritz!