What should new LDers be told

Well sort of. I was aginst telling them that it was hard. And I still am. But prehaps we shouldn’t tell them it was easy. Just the two P’s.

I beleive you were for telling them the truth, which you thought to be hard. So do we tell them that it’s hard?

Anyways, carry on being annoyed

Yes, we should compare it to learning to ride a bike. Then with one hand off of the handle bar, and then two. And then sometimes, adding tricks to it, going beyond the initial goal. But it takes practice.

We can’t overload them with things to od though. It’ll make the task seem impossible.

And prehpas this is our fault then. By reading, we want it so much. So we are wishing for lucid dreaming to hard.

Didn’t I just win it?

I would like to comment about the negative topics…

I’m firmly against telling newbies about negative experiences, or having them read negative experiences in the first place.

Keep in mind that the very nature of dreaming is (theoretically) entirely refined to YOUR MIND…

It’s just like if you watch tons of horror movies, you might not necessarily have horrible nightmares, but you are going to dream about those types of scenarios, zmobies, etc… a lot more.

If someone comes here who is really really uncertain about LDing, and say they read a thread where a bunch of people are saying “OMG… you guys need to be careful, LDing can be dangerous, there are energy vampires ou there just waiting for people to stray from their normal dream environments…”

and a lot of people are talking about that… what do you think is going to happen IF the poor guy manages to have an LD in the first place? It’s not going to be a fun one… he’s not going to be like a carefree child, innocently exploring… he’s going to be thinking “okay i need to do this this and this to keep myself safe…oh no what if so and so happens” and that makes for a bad dream…

Much like bad thoughts tend to lead to be trips…

So… there isn’t much of a problem with that kind of demon talk on here… but… I can say from experience that reading those kinds of stories does mess with you, and create a negative environment for your dreams and OBEs… when I started OBEing I got caught up in all the spirit/demon/neg talks… and it really dramatically affected me…

Whereas if everyone said “no way, that’s all superstitious nonsense” i wouldn’t have had nearly as much of a problem.

Debating whether they do exist is pointless and doesn’t go anywhere, but we all know that if you dwell upon something and are exposed to tons of stories about it, it’s going to be more likely to happen to you. We know the placebo effect works, especially for dreams and OBE’s and whatnot.

so I would first of all, point out to the new person, that they are going to read milions of different opinions and thoughts about LDs, but when it gets down to it, everyone’s experiences are different, everything everyone says is OPINION… we don’t even know that there is an unconscious mind… it’s a THEORY… it can be helpful to read such things from experienced LDers, but they are still just stating their own subjective experiences… and just because something is “true” to them , or that something works for them, doesn’t make it the case for you.

Like… some of us think flying is easy, some think it’s hard… but it is in fact neither… it can be anything inbetween and it seems to soley depend upon the person… which is the “ultimate truth” of LDing if I’ve ever seen one.

So basically I wouldn’t tell them to run and hide from negative posts, but that to keep in mind that nothing is universally true or stable in dreams, and that what happens to you ultimately depends upon what’s in your head, what you think, what you expectations and beliefs are… and that is largely, if not wholly, subjective.

One thing I really would never tell them though is things about spirits and demons, especially if they are religious or superstitious.

The problem is there are some people that so adamantly believe that these negs exist, that they will warn anyone because they think they are saving them from some sort of horrible evil.

But I don’t know… it’s kind of like the archetypes… if thousands of people believe in demons and have for ages… sure, you are probably gonna dream about them too… especially if you regularly talk to those people, but that doesn’t make them real…

The ultimate message to them is it’s all in your head, you might find it very easy, you might find it very hard… but if you dedicate yourself to it you shouldn’t have terrible problems in achieving it.

and I think that would instill a proper placebo effect in them providing they truly are serious about taking it up.

oh and I don’t necessarily think it’s 100% confined to the insides of your mind… I think paranormal things and telepathy and the likes might be possible, based upon my own experiences…

but that’s not somthing they should even be thinking about until they are able to LD at will and get lots of proper exploring and experimenting in… IMO.

stay away from the more abstract parnormal theories and ideas until you’re not a beginner… it’s just too much to fill your mind with…

They most certainly are it is called the power of resolution technique.

Some may even argue that it could be similar to MILD. But any way, there are plenty of people who use techniques like MILD, WILD, etc and see results very quickly.

I have also seen people who were progressing quite well then somehow got the I idea that LD should not be this easy and as a result started to have less LD ‘s.

Paul Tholey wrote that people who practice his technique will see results on avrage in 3-4 weeks, and under favorable circumstances will have a LD on there very first night.

Sounds like it.

I guess what it all comes down to is that it all depends on the person.

I think newbies should be encouraged to find out as much as they want on their own. If they for example want to read this particular thread on ld4all they should. If they only want to know positive things they’ll only read the things about positive experiences.

Why would you want to “trick” someone into thinking LD:ing is easier than it is and have them dissapointed at their lack of success and at you who lured them into it?

For me, the more information I can see “at hand” on a subject, the more likely I am to take the subject on - such as lucid dreaming, in fact. When directly giving advice, though, it certainly isn’t nice to give lots’n’lots, especially when leaving the course of action to the reader (and how else could we learn?)

We should always tell newbies that there’s no such thing as lucid dreaming, and to go about their business.

Yay. That’s the spirit. Lol.

Yes, and is it unfair to newbies to setup what could be potential placebo effects? If placebo is lieing, then I submit that there are good lies, and bad lies.

Yes. It is very dependent on the person. I think it is even more dependent on their attitude towards it. A negative peson or attitude will make it hard. A posotive person or attitude will possibly make it easier. I think it is more based on attitudes than the actual person.

All I can do is try to setup a posotive attitude towards lucid dreaming. If I said to you, riding a bike is really hard, and then you try it, you are going to find it harder. If I say it is easy, then you are going to most likley find it easier.

So by giving them sugestions, you increase the chance, so that there is more easy, and less hard.

This is why I am for telling newbies lucid dreaming is easy. Reading negative topics has seriously hindered my ability to lucid dream. All I can do is try to recover, and help newbies avoid such situations.

By giving them suggestions, and telling them that it’s easy with practice and patients, you can make their lucid dreaming career easier.

It is however, important to point out to them that it take some practice and patients, but giving them a promise that their efforts will be well worth it. It is also beneficial to comment highly on their sucesses, in order to make them feel as though they are doing well.

I don’t stop them from reading topics. I just tell them to read much more posotive topics, and not to over read on the negative ones. Also, not to take negative topics overly seriously.

I think that people often try to hard as well. If you tell them it’s easy, they are less likley to try to hard.

One last question. Who said lucid dreaming was hard? Prehaps, this is a placebo effect.

It is my new aim, to try help newbies to enjoy learning to lucid dream, as though they were learning to ride a bike. While it takes practice and patients, they must enjoy the learning process. I want them to find it easy, instead of hard, and a pain in the back.

My new website, which is ages off of completion, will attempt to help newbies enjoy and find the learning process easy.

I have a few main problems with this approach at the moment:

1. When do you tell the reader that some people find LDing hard? What if they know somebody who finds LDing hard, will they keep trusting your site?
2. If something needs practice and patience, how can you tell them that it’s easy?
3. Would you appreciate this lie? Not everybody would. I might have the feeling that somebody’s messing with my brain. Some people would consider everything a bad lie. Why lie to them if it is against their beliefs? You are the one serving them, after all - you are there reliable information source.
4. The highly motivational writing made from this approach can be a pain to read.

By the way, we should remember that we can’t really have very much control over what newbies read. Granted, Technodreamer’s site will probably follow some sort of “midway” - i.e. something not far from his point now, and not far from my own - but apart from that, it’s beyond our control.

That said, I’ll be waiting for Technodreamer’s site with high hopes!

I’m also hoping Atheist will pop along and comment. Not sure why, though…

It is not a trick. LD ing is nowhere near as hard as people make it out to be. It is simply a skill that has to be learned. A skill that anyone can easily learn.

When I first read about LD’s, I got the impression that it would be difficult and require a lot of effort, and I still haven’t had one after 4 years! (That’s soon to change though!!)

IMO, new LD’ers should be told it’s as easy as you make it for yourself, in addition to the cold facts.

I personally found lding quite easy… The majority of the people that tries, are successfull in having ld’s aswell, though the time it takes varies a bit from person to person. So i really disagreee when people say it is very hard to LD… Saying it is hard, might get the person to give up even before having tried… It varies from person to person, but it is sure as hell not as hard as some people here suggest.

It’s probably much the same as with any skill, like driving for example. Of course everyone can learn to drive a car. But it can be a difficult slow progress for some even if it is very fast and easy for others.

Compare someone who has trained 2 years and constantly failed to take his/her’s driver’s licence to someone like Michael Schumacher or Mika Häkkinen.

On the other hand suppose that someone who hasn’t heard about LD:ing is a natural that just doesn’t know about it yet - then it would be a shame to scare him/her away. It’s of course impossible to tell before he/she has tried how hard/easy it is going to be. I would also focus on the good stuff and everything i find cool about it if i was writing a newbie guide. But i would not over-exaggerate how easy it is to do, because that remains to be found out for each individual dreamer.

What placebo effect? I was half sure LD:ing wasn’t possible (fake) when i first tried it. I found out i was wrong by having one and it took me less than a week

That is all we are trying to get people to see.

Right now so many people think that LD ing is really hard and they are making it harder on themselves.

ianegg

That’s the right attitude.

You just have to put forth the effort and practice and you will see results.

I’m going to reply by replying to people’s quotes.

They must regognise that not every body is the same. I don’t think they would just leave the site because it has a different view on something, unless they were strongly against something you say.

Who says lucid dreaming’s hard? Is this a placebo effect?

What makes something easy or hard? If it’s fun, it’s much easier. I will use the example of learning to ride a bik. Learning to ride a bike can be fun. This makes it seem easier, and more enjoyable overall. This learning experience will help them in the long run, giving them a posotive attitude for ever more.

Who says it’s a lie? It’s more of an opinion. There is no such thing as a wrong opinion.

Then I submit that I am not lieing, just giving my opinions. This is, that everytime I have said to myself, Lding is easy, it has been easy for me.

So does that mean that LDing is hard, and that this is a fact?

I would much rather read it than “you’ll find LDing really hard”. If you don’t like motivation, don’t read it!

My website will contain a midway point of view, but still stressing that they can make LDing an easy learning process, rather than hard.

It is beyond our control to control what they read. We can only advice them.

Yes, it’s up to them wether they make it hard or easy. I say it’s easy because it can be made easy.

If I’m noy mistaken, this severly stumped your Lding growth. I hope this can be avioded for newbies.

All we can do is try to make it easier by helping them. It’s better to have help than be left alone to tackle a challange.

And neither would I

I’ll resist the sarcasm. I’ve already attacked your arguments to much.

OT. Will this just go in circles?

here’s a proposition:

newbie: is lucid dreaming hard ???
old head: it depends

let’s not try to impose our opinions or biases on them, cause just seeing how long this thread has gone on, we all have a lot of opinions and biases. i feel so bad for any newbies who have stumbled across this thread and has tried to figure out who was “right”

[i]When taxes are too high,
people go hungry.
When the government is too intrusive,
people lose their spirit.

Act for the people’s benefit.
Trust them; leave them alone.

-Lao-tzu (Tao Te Ching - Chapter 75)[/i]

let them find their own way

I agree. Leave them alone. If they ask how hard it is I will just say it depends on how hard you choose to make lucid dreaming. I will still say make it easy on yourself, but prehaps I won’t overload them with opinions.

THis topic is a good example of what could happen when you overload them with opinions.

We should tell them that lucid dreaming is very dangerous and stops you from ever waking up again.

Tell them that if you die in a lucid dream you die in real life. The body cannot function without the brain…