I’d have to agree with Flo-- the Pitch Black intermediate area isn’t a bad thing. I’m often very excited when my LD begins here. When I have this experience, it’s often connected to more of an OBE or FA, or something inbetween an OBE and a LD. I used to get frustrated, because I’d spend so much energy trying to get out of my apartment, feeling around in the dark. But now I use this time to gather energy and plan my dream missions. If the LD doesn’t come to me, I ususally end up finally making my way out a window or door and flying in the dark over a town with lights below. I almost ALWAYS end up landing at what seems like a university or college campus, and finding a building with lights and activity to go inside. And I haven’t been a student for years, so this seems weird to me, but it’s like a jumping off/starting area for me. Like the SeaLife Forum folks, I’m very interested in mapping my dream locales, and this university campus seems to be the gateway to other places in my dream universe. Good luck!
PS-- In the past I could never get out of my dark apartment until I created dream weapons for myself, because I was afraid of having spooky experiences out in the dark once I got out. After I started doing this, it kind of quelled my fears/gave me confidence and facilitated new dream locales just coming to me instead of me struggling to find them.
I have the same experiences with WILD’s. I always end up in my apartment or house, and it’s very dark. Quite annoying.
I used to simply walk outside, but it would not always be light outside. My solution was to walk through the nearest wall–then everything would become COMPLETELY black. Since I was no longer anyplace, the my subconscious had to create a brand new dream scene, which would usually be very well lit.
Thats your problem right there. The fact that you expect that you cannot conjure stuff up in your dreams. Now, this alone will not allow you to conjure stuff up in your dreams! Its hard to explain, but to conjure stuff up, all you have to do is believe you can. But, let me ask you two questions: In these dreams, do you fear the dark, and do you fear being alone?
You got to face it, your dreams can simply represent your fears. Now, if these dreams are your fears, you must overcome them. What I suggest is looking around this forum and find examples of people conjuring up stuff in thier dreams. Then, you can say to yourself, yes its possible. Now, then you have to realize you can do it to. But, just cause it fails is not bad, it just means you need practice. lol, like my WILD technique, which almost worked for me, except I thought the HI was real lol so I got up.
I think what flow is referring to is something different. I think she was talking about the void which is a different thing all together.
Sentient:
I think you need to work on making your LD ‘s more vivid and improving your dream control. You could be dreaming in non REM sleep as jeff suggested but it sounds like all your LD’s are like that. Are your ND the same? Don’t worry your dreams will get more vivid and you will have better control in time.
Flo:
Pitch black intermediate area i think is diff from what im getting. With me, to rehash, its like im walking around my house but its just really really dark, to the point of pitch black or faint outline.
But i think i know of what you speak, kind of like the state where youre in complete darkness and not dreaming but ‘inside’ or something, i get that all the time and usually wake up from it. From here tho i cant feel my body but to me at least it is the state i wake up into before waking into SP or just my body waking up. I always get annoyed when this happens, everything goes totally black, surroundings fade, and its just me in this dark, warm, comfortable darkness but i know im waking up from. I get the idea that im waking up but then fight it and it just makes me wake up faster it seems.
milod:
Yeah, im thinking i just need more LD exposure and then i’ll eventually be more used to it and clearer thinking and have more willpower and belief in my ability to manipulate my dreamscape. It may be dreaming in non REM sleep but im also thinking i need to also get rid of the conditioning in me that reflects real world surroundings (they carry in like mad and manifest either directly or in very abstract ways), maybe i could just turn on a light when i sleep but that effects my sleeping and wastes electricity.
I just need to believe more in my ability to control my environment and just say ‘let there be light!’ LOL No, my ND are usually very vivid and fairly bright, like normal day light or just the light level like underneath a canopy of trees. Plenty more light than in these FA LD.
ErikW:
Great idea about dreamsign. No, i dont really have anything to fear, its just dark and i cant see and it gets really annoying having to walk around slowly, lol im too conditioned cuz thats how i get around in dark settings IRL. LOL currently i just take advantage of the automatic garage light if i actually get out, for light. I know i should not depend on such but try to manifest light.
Thessaly:
I remember reading something about how college campuses and basically schools in your dreams can serve as more of a gateway to other places and whatnot, because IRL they are places where you learn and experience a variety of fields and whatnot. Knowledge and understanding based gateways. LOL i made up that last part but it makes sense.
I know of the state you speak of, i think. Yeah, its like the inside state or something that i think is between SP and floating, or maybe before SP. Somewhere round there but i agree wholeheartedly that from here you can pursue an OBE or jump right into an LD.
Hehe dream weapons, one time when i actually got out of my house in an LD i had a sword for protection, but all these animals came out of nowhere and blocked the street. They kept arriving bigger and bigger and just sitting there on their hunches. I was a little scared of them and respected them, also did not feel like bloodshed and so turned around (i think ran actually), not surprisingly lost lucidity shortly afterwards. I just need more confidence.
Monitor:
You are very lucky in that you can control that clean dreamslate state. LOL dreamslate 
by that i mean where the dreamscape is wiped clean. Whenever i end up there i always end up in ‘inside state’ and then waking up. I need to recognize this state more and believe i can control it and create new dreamscape from there.
ErikW:
That statement was just a conclusion drawn from my inability to create fireballs. But i do know what you mean, in that such a conclusion was not constructive. LOL thanks for the insight i would have probably never seen that and been limiting myself…*cool more constructive conclusions…got it. 
*
LOL yeah whenver i am trying to manifest stuff, i always go about it meticulously and just dumb getting stuck on ‘how to do it’ when i should just ‘do it’ with the conviction that it is easy, like i can do it naturally.
I do not fear the dark, well maybe just a little after a normal house ND where some sort of alien thing walked by my house and down my driveway (it was a siluohuette) and crashed through my living room (i listend to it) and then i got my sword and stayed near my door, it burst open and i sliced downwards but stopped, it turned out to be my dog, i almost sliced my dog! LOL I posted this before somewhere (maybe here) too in more detail.
Its just the feeling of the darkness that may stick with me, i need to dispell it, i know its foolish to hang onto it. As far as fearing being alone, no not really. I just fear that im not alone when i think i am sometimes tho lol.
Basically i know now that fear is probably the most limiting factor in LD’s, probably for most people. Ive seen others and myself lose lucidity because of reactionary fear (like after action taken in fear, usually running away). What i believe i and others must do is keep a clear mind, and always keep focus on my lucidity, that there thus absolutely nothing to fear.
As far as these days go, i think im in a dry spell (week 2 i think) tho i havent been getting much sleep lately (last night was the first time in i think 2 weeks that i actually got more than 6 hours of sleep). I just need to get my priorities straight and make ‘to do lists’ (which help me so much, prob be dead now without that one for the week before last LOL 
) lol i can never decide tho on what to put on this date or that date im spontaneous in what i do you see, not a good thing when you got a lot and you procrastinate. But if its there i follow it (mostly except for studying for tests, esp Calculus LOL)
But anyways my last LD’s ive just said ‘ah well’ and have other endeavors in mind: AP. From my last i think 4 LDs (id have to check my DJ but its somewhere round 4-6) i have waken into SP and then usually Floating State from which i try to project. I think ive successfully fully separated once from this but that did not last long. What i am striving to do, is map out the process from going to bed to getting out of my body. Its complete for the most part piece by piece, i just have to go through it wholly. Two main paths to SP, one involving LD and another involving going into SP from initially going to bed. Only done that once and it was cool. I think i might post this whole map thing, maybe to help others make their own maps, in my DJ here on the forums when i get around to starting it. LOL
LOL well thank you all for your insights!!! You are all the coolest, without your advice id be going at such a slower pace! I’ll post related developments here or on my yet-to-exist DJ. 
Note to Sentient: Check your threads more often!
The first thing I thought when I saw your post was: “Could this BE any longer?!”
Hehe, lol. You know I like to give you a hard time. 
LOL yeah they just stop for a while and then boom they pick up again and i come over and am like ‘woa wha!?!? what happened here omg!!!’
LOL was just exaggerating a bit there. 
As for me nightmarishly long posts. LOl i think that one took the cake, check out me subject lines
LOL ive been meaning to post about that in that popularity poll lol who wants to nominate me for Nightmarishly Long Poster? but wait i i didnt come here as often, i wouldnt be able to post such long horrendous posts tho! 
…
JJ
I don’t know about being nominated for “Nightmarishly Long Poster” but you SHOULD get a prize for being weird enough to title each and every post you make. There should be a poll: “How many people actually READ Sentient’s post titles?” *I may be the only one! JJ.
*Didja notice mine?!?!?!
LOL wow i never wouldve thought of that, lol to be honest when i first started posting i thought that putting something in the subject lines was normal, kind of like a summary of what youre talking about. Of course i have long veered off that course.
LOL I didnt notice your subject line till i read that, lol its just so natural to start reading the post, and the subject line is so hidden! I can say from that that you are probably the only one.
As far as mine subject line goes, thats another ‘Jay Jay’
Ya, lol, im trying to conjure stuff as well. I failed the first time. But, I think the easy way to do it is to imagine it behind you, cause your brain is not use to things just popping out of thin air you know.
Also, what techniqu are you using to induce lucid dreams? Would it by any chance by a WILD?
That is a good idea, the expecting to be there when you turn around. Sort of a variant of expectation technique of LD. That vs the direct observing manifest technique. I think the former is easier, i’ll probably try that first.
The two main techniques i use to attempt LD’s are WILD and ‘noticing of dream feeling’
Dream feeling discussion here
https://community.ld4all.com/t/dream-feeling/10157
Too bad im in a dry spell right now LOL. should end tonight (hopefully), pull a mix between mnemonic and wild. In fact its not just WILD as i stated above but a mix between belief i’ll have one and then pulling a WILD to get there. (not terribly successful, i’ll prob post a new thread about my current WILD troubles)
Hi,
No, what I call intermediate state is absolutely not a warm and pleasant state. It is FEAR. Or at least, very unpleasant. It is what astralists call “low astral”.
I will copy here a part of an email I sent to Dreambob :
Right from the beginning, my idea was doing meditation in dreams. I had 2 kinds of LDs :
- DILDs
- WILDs, which other people would call OBEs. For all my WILDs, I go out of my body, so they all begin in a half intermediate state (dark image of my room, and sometimes nothing).
To simplify, let’s say there are 2 different states : dream / pitch black
Experimenting the 2 of them, I tried meditation in the 2. And I immediately noticed that there was good results in pitch black and no results in dreams.
What I call result, is “flowing energy” or “vibrations” (the same as OBE or sleep paralysis vibrations). So I spent more and more time not only meditating, but explorating the intermediate state (you can believe there is nothing to explore in a pitch black ? Wrong !)
There, I had many problems, because intermediate state is not as safe as dream (many people call it “low astral”). The energy of dream imagery being “free”, all your fears become immediatly true. In fact, fear seemed to be the main characteristic of this state (another reason of the inability of LDers to stay in it. Maybe they don’t feel always fear, but anyhow, they don’t feel very good !).
Well, after years of problems, I found a way to clean it from its bad contents, and then I could stay calm in it, observing how dreams appear. Because they appear, in front of you, or all around you, and take you. And then my problem was “How to avoid being taken by dreams”. I wanted to stay calmly meditating, but there was always something falling upon me, trees, books, demons… anything. And impossible to ignore them, because of the pain. A dog biting you in a dream can be very painful. Or it could be demons putting their fingers in my eyes. As if the dream wanted me to consider it.
After some other years, I found a way to fly through entire dreams (moutains, houses, trees, oceans, trains, anything) without being touched. In fact, I didn’t fly through them. Dreams were flying through me, but they were no more solid.
Question of Dreambob : It happens to me occasionally, and normally I simply wait for the next dream to begin. Sometimes, I have wondered if this is the state, called “dreamless sleep” – do you think it is??
Answer : This is not it.
Now, after several other years, I have the whole theory.
At the source of all, there is clarity/emptiness (non dual). With ignorance, it is transformed in duality. The solid objects (matter) are the materialization of clarity, and the void is the materialization of emptiness.
So, objects and void are equal in this regard.
When you look around you, you see objects. When you close your eyes, you see nothing. But this nothing is not emptiness, it is something : it is void. It may seem strange, but the void is an object. A black objet, but an object.
So, pitch black is an object. It comes from the grasping of the absence of dream. This is the materialization of the absence of dream. In a word : a mental construction. Like dreams.
There is more free energy in pitch black because it takes less energy to create it, than to create a dream. And on the basis of this energy, one can begin a work (that’s how meditation works).
So, you understand that clarity/emptiness can only come from the reunification of dream/void.
What is called dreamless state in tibetan buddhism is clarity/emptiness.
If you want the room to be brighter, just say “i shoulden’t be wearing these stupid sunglasses” and they will appear to be there.
then just take them off
Flo-- Thanks for explaining in more detail. Your post was fascinating. Your control gained through meditation is admirable. I now understand that your Pitch Black “Intermediate Area” is, of course, different than the dark beginning-of-journey place to which I was referring. I was speaking of an experience closer to Sentient’s (Sentient: BTW, interesting that you’ve read about the University representing the beginning of other people’s dreamscapes- thanks for sharing!).
I think I’ve had a few experiences with the “low astral” through what I thought were OBE 's , but they were so completely horrifying that I stopped remembering dreams altogether for months afterwards. And those experiences are the reason that I began conjuring weapons to defend myself a the beginning of all my LD 's: Fear.
flo
You should read some of jeff’s posts. He does some work with meditation and self hypnosis in LD’s. I have not tried it yet but it sounds interesting. I beleive that Dm7 can do it also.
Thessaly,
a dark place in a dream is not far from intermediate state. A little different but not far. For me, even a dream could be called “intermediate state” now, because the 2 states are merging. But for a “normal” LDer, yes, dark place and OBE are perceived as different. For example, at the beginning (my 200 first LDs), I was not able to get absolutely dark places in dreams. But after doing many OBEs, I noticed that my dreams could turns the same “horrifying way”, turn into OBEs, some of them being very frightful… In 1996, I even stopped 6 months because I had too many problems with an “astral entity”, which I called the mattress demon (this sonofab… was under my bed). In 1999 only, I managed to swap consciousness with him (yes !) and after several times he disappeared. After this, dream and OBE-state began to merge.
That was good to remind me that perception and dream phenomena change with practice… and that helps me to understand why Sentient did not understand the similarity between his dark dreams and OBE-state.
Milod, I will try to find Jeff. I read many posts since 2 days but don’t remember who is Jeff…
I have prayed in LD’s which is another form of meditation too. The results were impressive. I found myself travelling as a result.
I still have to try things like praying in tongues, or christian meditation on scripture etc.
I don’t get your point of ‘fear’ though. I haven’t ever had fear in an LD, or in dreams (not even when I was ‘shot’ in an ND). I have never carried weapons in an LD, too.
Your experience though reminds me of Dark night of the soul, somehow.
Hi Clarkkent,
if I believe what I see in your signature, you have 33 LDs now. According to my dream journal, half-intermediate-state appeared rather quickly, but strange phenomena linked with OBE-state appeared dream 83, and bad trips appeared dream 153. Problems took time to come.
The Dark night of the soul is not exactly this. It is replacing phenomena by their absence. For example, a guy becoming monk will leave the worldly life and replace it by the absence of distractions. This absence is a mental construction, it has the appearance of void. Everyone experiments void in meditation. Intermediate state in the equivalent while dreaming.
As I said in another post, void is not emptiness (what buddhists call emptiness is what christians call God).
In takes much time before void is replaced by God. The Dark night is the void, as mental construction.
Fear is different. It is dynamic. Void is depressing.
Not exactly - dark night is something which applies to all Christians at some point or another (or may apply) not just monks… Never mind… (mind you emptiness is not God and the latter isn’t a mental construction - far from it! but let’s not get into that…)
Wouldn’t Laberge and other experienced oneironauts have encountered the same thing if it were something which applies to everyone? I suspect it may not apply to all. Has it been reported in the literature?
Did you suffer from nightmares? Have you tried talking to these things, considering they may be mental constructs? Reality checks where you mention obe’s ? because WILD is not normally an OBE, just an LD (I subscribe to Laberge’s idea that most likely it’s an LD)
Are you on any medications? Sorry if I ask these questions, but they may be related… who knows…