tansitive: (of a verb or a sense or use of a verb) able to take a diret object. And an object is a noun.
These are transitive verbs: kill, rape, torture, etc (any verb that you do to the dream character).
And, a noun is a word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places or things.
A dream character is not a place obviously. A dream character is not a person. And a dream character is nothing, since it does not exist.
And nothing is not anything; no single thing. And anything is used to refer to a thing, no matter what. So, if a dream character is nothing, then
it cannot be a thing. And, if a dream character is not a person, place, or thing, then a dream character is not a noun.
And if a dream character is not a noun, then you cannot apply transitive verbs to a dream character such as kill, rape, torture, etc.
Also, a right is an adjective, and adjectives are APPLIED TO NOUNS, and since a dream character is not a noun,
then you cannot use an adjective to describe it. And, you might have this counter argument: “Well, Erik, the word nothing is a noun…”
WRONG, the word nothing is a pronoun. And a pronoun is a word that “CAN” function as a noun phrase used by itself and that refers either to the participants in the discourse or to someone or something mentioned elsewhere in the discourse. And, in the case of the pronoun, nothing, it does not refer to a noun. And, when you say I (lets say I refers to Erik) killed bob, you are applying the word kill to Bob, and the word killed does not apply to I, but applies to Erik (becasue transitive verbs do not apply to pronouns, but rather the noun that they refer to).
So, in conclusion, this proof is alot simpler than my other one, and in order to think it is false,
you would have question the meaning of very basic words like noun, pronoun, verb, adjective, transitive verb, etc;
Or, you would have to argue my premise of that a dream character is not a person and that a dream character is non existant.
ErikW! Just because the dictionary doesn’t consider a dream character a person (and I would say dream characters are people - not real ones, but people nevertheless) doesn’t mean that it’s etched in stone “You may ‘do’ whatever you like to DCs”!
Whoa, lets not get dragged into a dictonary (although I could do with one) debate over words meanings and such, we should focus on the topic at hand.
I would just like to say that negative and positive can have different interperatations depending on the person, although one person may believe something is “negative” or “evil” this can be put down to that persons environment and influences, really perceptions of good and evil are just that: perceptions.
But Ghandi, Jesus, MLK jr NEVER played with violent toys, games etc!!!
They responded like I did, not like you! That’s the difference!
Venial sin leads to mortal sin, this is a very researched argument, so don’t
go saying that evil doesn’t lead to more evil.
my philosophy professor calls what you just made a “slippery slope” argument, in that doing action A will irrevocably cause one to arrive at action B where action B is much worse than action A
we were told to NEVER make this argument because it is a bad one. and i will tell you why…
why does doing evil lead to more evil, if i punched someone in the face and they started to cry… does that mean i’m going to go and punch 15 people in their faces… maybe 30 ??? not necessarily
/quote]
Wrong. Know why? Your mortal sin needs to be forgiven before you can not be violent. Once it is forgiven, there is NO sin or fault of killing so in that case it is not “EVIL not leading to evil”. It is “EVIL becoming NOTHING leading to NON-VIOLENCE if you like”.
milod789 I think YOUR comments are offensive if anything.
I am not out of balance and I don’t know if YOU are cause I don’t want to JUDGE you LIKE YOU JUDGED ME.
Putting words in my mouth again - I never said that.
Want to define evil - because I don’t think I told you how I define it.
Evil comes from the heart, I already said that. Evil is the refusal to accept God and his laws too. There are good people who don’t know God but in their hearts the good that is in them comes from Him.
Being ‘good/bad’ has nothing to do with ‘opinion’ or ‘thinking differently’.
A society which has a complete level of goodness - think heaven - does no evil acts, lives in peace and love among itself.
that statement is reeks of judgement, accusation, finger-pointing, and is generally offensive
prove it
i’m done w/ this thread. i have presented and defended my views in a manner that i am quite satisfied w/, if my strongest opponent is clarkkent, i’ve defeated him about 20 posts ago, thank you bows
Oh of course… if we are sharing dreams with fellow humans the only damage done is psychological… or if they are unconscious creations or whatever, we affect our minds in some probably unknowable way… maybe like a guy represents a certain symbolic message to you, and you attack that message? Who knows.
If there are “real” like, … beings out there… I do suppose maybe you could manage to literally kill them while dreaming though.
My problem is the sex is unrealistic, their bodies don’t look right, and it usually doesn’t feel good at all. If i’m in an ND it can, but the realism usually isn’t there.
Most of these dreams are better as NDs, but yeah… enacting a movie can be fun… I usually leave that up to my mind becuase it’s better at putting me in fun scenarios than I am.
Yeah…
People need to realize that the only reason they are -ians is because they were BORN INTO THAT FAITH (now obviously there are many exceptions) It’s like for me… you know… as kid… it was like… well… my mom told me about God and Jesus… why would she lie to me? Why would she make things up? Kids aren’t paranoid and untrusting, they’ll believe whatever little thing you say to them. SANTA CLAUS ANYONE? There is no room for rationalization in a childs mind, when information is put into it as soon as it begins developing.
So it was like, everything I thought I believed, I did NOT believe… they were just the beliefs of my parents, and then when I got older, very loosely various youth groups, they were THEIR beliefs, NOT MINE.
Becuase I had never been given a choice… it’s not like learning to walk where you try out every configuration there is until you get it right… your parents don’t say “here now son, let’s go down to the store and you can pick out your own religion” they GIVE YOU ONE.
You are, whatever your parents are… most people never realize that, think they were “lucky” to be a _______________ and so glad that they aren’t a _________________.
(okay now this isn’t always true, it depends on whether society encourages people to question, but America, though not dominated by christians demographically… is still firmly rooted in conservative and religious ideology… so it just kind of depends here… if you live in certain areas you might rebel against religion… if you live in othe areas you might “rebel” by listening to Christian Rock and skating…much to the dismay of your southern grandpa who hates rock music…
It just really depends… but there are a good number of people that never question their beliefs, rather, just stick with the ones they were given, or question some of them but feel too afraid to choose their own given the wide scope of different options out there.
(this is directed toward intolerant christians i know in real life) If you people were born in the middle east, you’d be what you consider to be “evil” right now!!! And you know what… YOU’D HATE what you are right now… you’d be a polar opposite.
But you’d still be a conservative hateful and intolerant person… just on the opposite end!
They fail to realize this… I don’t know why we have the lives we do, MAYBE IT IS AN ACT OF GOD… if so, that would be like he condemns most of the world to hell at birth… but I mean… these people rationalize it like “oh God found me, I dodn’t find him” well then why ddin’t God find all those African kids that are dying of AIDS?
You know? You are LUCKY to be where you are, and if you were somewhere else, you would be a religious zealot all the same, just of a different creed…
People cannot fathom themselves becoming “silly pagans” they speak down on them like trash, but you know what, just be born somewhere else and you’d be saying the same about christians…
If you do not question your faith, you don’t deserve to have one, because you believe whatever THEY want you to believe.
For example, how do we not know, that Jesus already came back, we are in the aftermath of the end, the world is run by the anti-christ, and he polluted Jesus’s texts and the Bible in order to get you to believe the way you do now?
Because some of them are like, so blind, that they never ever stray or wonder “why” because doing so is a sin… I mean, they are completely and totally brainwashed and manipulated… what they don’t realize is that, over time, there could be a movement to drastically (but gradually) change key portions of the Bible to instill control in people, and 50 years from now, if you were born then, you’d be effectively brainwashed… how would you know what happened? We alter original text so much with translations for example, it could be part of a movement to change people’s ways of thinking.
But how do you know you aren’t already? Did you exist back then? Are you going to blindly trust greedy churches full of sex scandals and bloody pasts to tell you what to believe?
Until you question everything about yourself, you are not an invidual in terms of what you believe in, you are a reflection of everyone else.
Even after you question there is only so far that you can cast yourself away from the mold… well without going insane !
But anyway… I’m not the first person to realize this either, I’m just spouting off things that I sadly had to be told in order to understand…
“To think for yourself you must question authority.” - Timothy Leary.
“And in my darkest moment fetal and weeping, the moon tells me a secret, my confidant… as full and bright as I am, this light is not my own and, a million light reflections pass over me.” - Tool, Reflection.
It’s sad, but I owe my new found “self” to that band… it’s a crazy and sad paradox that you tend to need to TELL people to think for themselves… (but hey i was still fairly younger back then, maybe college would have opened my eyes if they didn’t?)
Oh well… maybe this post will spark some inner reflection in people… if what you believe in is worth beliving in, then it will withstand vigorous and incessant questioning… but you have to be open about it and look at the other possibilities, other points of views…
How does it hurt to question? It either affirms your faith, or shows you that you have better things to spend your time beleving in. That’s how you grow.
Your post was a little bit long and a little hard to follow but, I agree with most of what you said though I don’t understand what it has to do with the topic. I might have missed something though. I know what you mean about people being victims of circumstances. I wok as an advocate for people who are disabled, suffer from mental illness, or otherwise disenfranchised. I have seen the problem people face first hand. (Just so that you know I have engaged in many acts of civil discordance to fight the system.).
Any way If you really believe that you may harm a real person in your dreams then don’t do it. I never said you should. I was just saying that there is no harm if you do. Not to your self, other people, or your soul. When this topic started I mearly suggested that you can learn from your negative dreams as much as you can from your positive ones. That it is ok to (pick you negative action) in a LD because it a safe place to explore those feelings. However, unlike Clark Kent I do not try to force my views on anyone else or threaten you with the wrath of god. Feel sorry for him and have understanding. Understand that he cant help it. Almost like brainwashing. I have many strongly Christian friends and none of the would spew the kind of garbage that comes out of his mouth. I am not sure where you come from but, not all christens are like that. As I said I have Christian friends and though I do not share there beliefs I respect them and there views as they respect mine. Any way this is off topic slightly but, I want you to have some balance today. After this I suggest that you don’t read this thread anymore today. Read something that is more uplifting, funny or what ever to help you get back in ballance.
I will still be here tomorrow and this debate will go on for a long time i am sure. ( ok so I am telling you what to do. This will be the only time though ) I just sense that you need a break from this debate, I could be wrong. If I am fell free to ignore my previous advice.
Clark Kent:
Researched by who ??? Name the study !!!
No !!! It does not have to !!!
If a person commits a crime or ( sin ) it does not necessarily lead to more crimes or sins. I work with people in the criminal justice system every day. I don’t need a study to tell me what I see with my own eyes. “One thing does not necessarily lead to another”. In fact many people become better people because of there mistakes. This is coming from experience not a study. I have seen it. You appear to have the complete inability to see beyond the black and white. In the real world you will find life is mostly in the gray. Maybe when you have actually done something rather than “study it” you will learn.
REALLY ???
Think of the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials just to name a few. This is what happens when society believes they are the judge for good and anyone who does not agree with them is evil !!!
Hh that right they can just go to confession and wipes the slate clean. How convenient that must be for you.
oneiromancer
Ha I thought I bet him long before that. LOL
Or maybe that was on the other thread. I get them confused.
milod is judging me obviously as well as my faith.
The ‘garbage’ you called is part of my faith (check out your catechism) and I even copied parts of it here. IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE POPE FYI!
I respect your beliefs and nowhere did I say otherwise. You keep putting words in my mouth. No way to debate…
About venial sin leading to mortal sin. I quote… The Pope. He wrote that in the catechism, as did most saints, even philosophers. St Augustine did too.
Nice guy that one. Really. He wrote that it did too. Why don’t you go all out and attack him now. Feel better?
So please ask the Pope to do the research if you feel like but he did do the research plus he’s infallible on these matters.
I do not need the research or the proof though it exists. I have faith, so thank you once more - don’t feel sorry for me. I do feel sorry for you if you refuse God’s mercy and love however.
Don’t bring up stuff which is not the teaching of Christ or the Church because you only look more silly when you do that. As if Christ ordered people to kill.
My REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE working with real people proves your statement to be completely untrue. I do not require a study, I see it and experience things for my self. I have a mind of my own and can think and observe things for my self. Where as all you can do is turn to a page in a book a quote scripture will I could do that as well and it proves nothing. You appear to have no experience to draw on to prove your arguments.
The only person here doing that is you.
No, at least not compleatly. Not without critically questioning the information and sourse of the info etc.
Where is this great proof you keep talking about ??? So far you have not proved anything !!!
To quote our dear friend, Mercutio: “A plague o’ both your houses!”
I wish you guys would quit this incessant arguing! When is enough enough for you? Who keeps monitoring these DC-threads-turned-religious-debate loops and doesn’t lock them? At this point, we are far from the topic and the ranting keeps going. “Break the cycle. . .” SOMEBODY be brave enough to say, “Okay. You’ve said your piece and I’ve said mine. Nice chatting with you.” and be DONE with it all? Being the bigger person is having the ability to let go.
Or one of the mods be brave and give them both warnings for posting off-topic religious posts that no longer has nothing to do with the main topic (if they ever did) - a mod has already cleaned this topic once and yet you STILL continue to post off-topic religious posts - in my eyes that is straight up warning street.
Now are you going to act mature like grown ups, or do i have to send you both to bed without supper?
As for the actual topic (if anyone remembers what that was about) I think killing dream characters is a perfectly HEALTHY thing to do, in dreams we can release that frustration which has built up through out the day in a safe and controlled way. After all who gets hurt? No one.
Violent dreams and violent art/games/movies etc., does not breed violence it never has and never will. Violent art has always breed from violent life, not the other way around releasing frustrations in dreams through killing/harming imaginary people is perfectly natural and perfectly safe. Not doing so and bottling all these frustrations up is what causes people to act violently in real life granted there are many other ways to releave that built up agression, many people find sports a good release.
Now killing dream characters for fun (or video games) is totally different to doing it in real life. The only people that would kill in real life because they did in a dream/game are those with extremely low morality and conscience, in which case they would probably if killed eventually anyways. Those who find dream killing fun, that are of perfectly sound mind, do so because they know there are no consequences and therefore need not worry.
[color=indigo]I agree completely that killing dream characters is a fun and healthy thing to do MOST of the time. But the above statement is wrong. Try telling it to the parents whos kids died while another kid shot them, influenced completely by games. He got so obsessed with it, he did it IRL. Sometimes it CAN breed violence, and it already has done. But this does rarely happen, and in most cases the person/s it has affected already has psychotic problems. Healthy people can tell the difference between waking reality and fantasy. But there are many people out there who can’t. So my opinion is: if you are completely sure you are sane, do it. If not…then…don’t shoot me?[/color]
