The Boundary between the Dream- and WakingWorld

“When everything is said and done, the Wired is nothing more than a way to exchange information.
-You’re wrong. The boundaries are not that clear.”
Serial Experiments Lain

To what extent are the Dreamlands parralel dimensions to this physical world?

This is the one of the most interesting questions I’ve come across. I’m wondering if
dreams are solely the product of our individual mind or whether the Dreamworld is as
interlinked as the waking world is?

If the Dreamlands are solely the product of our mind this would mean that two persons
couldn’t be together in a dream. This, however, is not true as we have also seen on
this board. There are even people who have been lucid together in a dream. So are the
Dreamlands parralel dimensions or are only some interlinked with the Astral while
there’s also space where in fact solely karmic traces/episodes are expressed by our
mind and remain isolated?

After an experience in the Dreamworld with someone you know physically [especially if
it is an ‘extreme’ experience like sex or a fight] you will often find that this
influences the wakind world. On one hand there’s your reaction to the dream, which
will eventually influence your attitude towards the person concerned when you next
meet him/her, but on the other hand there also seems to be an influence/change in
the other person - even though he/she is unconsciouss of it. Furthermore does this not
always have to happen this way. It works also the other way around (ie: that you are
unconsciouss of the dream) or that both people have forgotten the dream. You may also
encounter when someone tells you about a dream they had, which involved yourself, that
you find a characteristic of yourself (and not of the other person) in it and sometimes
even recall the dream.
Sometimes you meet someone you haven’t seen in a while and this triggers your memory
that you met him in a dream the previous night. Perhaps the dream forshadowed the
meeting, the crossing of your lifepaths already expressed in the Dreamlands or it was
an active process where you both longed to see each other again and thus established
contact in the Dreamlands. Does this mean that all contact in dreams is in fact with
living beings / spirits / etc and we merely forget on awaking and thus think dreams
are a subjective and isolated dimension?

I haven’t attained Lucidity yet, so I’m not able to explore the Dreamlands to the extent
that I would like to, but I know there are a lot of experienced people on this board who
can comment on this. Thank you.

OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI

think this one out more carefully

I think that dreams, even lucid ones are just that. Dreams, creations of our own minds. Is there a possibility that other planes may exist? I choose to leave my mind open about this.

when i first started lucid dreaming that was the same question taht was running through my mind. and still to thi day i havent come to a good answer. if ii had to choose though i would go with my gut instinct and say that yes they are “some” dreams that are on a diffrent plane. if you ask me to try and explain why i think this i can not, if you ask me to explain how i know this i can not do that either, it is just somthing that i believe.

in my LD i have come across portals that lead to other demensions. now the feelings that i get from these portals and what is on the other side is somthing that i can not describe, somehting not of this world.

How i started dremaing about these i do not know but i do know when. It was when the “dream gods” appeared in my dreams, i do not know what these beings are, they just claim to be dream gods and are infact very powerful. also this was the time when i group of beings appeared called the watchers, i thought i was the only one to dream these and didnt bother telling anyone but as it happens others have dreame dof the dream gods and watchers. i do not say they actually exist and i am not asking that you do, just tring to shed some light i hope.

these portals i have gone through a few times and each time i am in a place that feels very diffrent to this world… i cant explain it.

Now does this mean taht i am on a diffrent world? i dont know. does it mean that i start of on a diffrent reality? i dont know either. does it mean that dreams can be links to diffrent realities? to that i will have to answer yes. imo.

Hey Timeless,

can you give some more information about these ‘watchers’ or ‘dream gods’ ??

What is your experience with them? what do you know about them?

Never have I heard of them but its interesting to know,
-stranger

um i can try from memory this is i wil lget out my DJ tonight and get a rea post happening but just a rough one so far.

Oh btw if anyone has anything to add please post it, or post it in the lab section testing the realnes of DC part III

Dream gods:
These are a group of being that i have found teh hold a great deal of power. you know whne you are lucid and you can sorta feel your power? well these Dream gods are full of that power, as if they were made of…lucidity? i cant think of the word. Ummm what else, for a long time they were talking to be about a fight that was oing to happen, but not of this world, it was in teh dream world although it would affect the waking world as well. They also related to Dream Walker as well . You can ask him to he knows a bit about them as well also about the Watchers.

The dreams ods i have found seem to travel using portals. they are on a high plane of existance, but tehre is somthing above them. bar that from memory that is all that i can remember sorry i will try and find them in my books.

watchers: now these bugers i can bearly say a thing about, but i do know that they watcher over peoples dreams, hence the name. They are sort of beings that are well the mods of the dream world. i have been in a lot of fights with these guys, they may also be SG i am not sure. i am sorry i whish i could remember more, i promise i will post more alter though. i am glad that you are interested though

on dream gods:
there are two primary deities in tibetan buddhism monks pray
to for lucidity : salgye du dolma and gyuma chenmo
the name ‘salgye du dolma’ means ‘she who clarifies beyond conception’;
“she is the luminosity in the darkness of normal sleep”.

timeless: i know the emotion/feeling you tried to describe.
these are the dreams where im almost lucid - very vivid/velvet …
hm. i dont know if i stepped through portals though to come to these situations.
but there’s a scenario in my dreams that reoocurs since i was a kid.
‘beings’ from a different dimension come through portals and try
to destroy this world which ends in apocalyptic fighting

salaam.

ooOOoo can you share any of them dreams?

Hmm interesting thanx for that Dreamfibre, sheds a bit of light on things

I have had some strange things happen in ND that I believe went beyond dreams but it never happened in a LD. I think LD s sort of protect you from those experiences unless you want to explore them.

Perhaps the dream forshadowed the meeting, the crossing of your lifepaths already expressed in the Dreamlands or it was an active process where you both longed to see each other again and thus established contact in the Dreamlands.

i can vouch for that one.

I also personally believe you can visit people (real people) too… but… I’m not sure if you can only do it if they approve… or if… you could effectively invade and harrass someones mind through dreams… I hope not…

If so there is probably some form of karma in place… and if there is… I hope this form of karma understands that I do the things I do in my dreams thinking the people aren’t real, and that if I knew they were real I would feel very bad and not continue.

So… anyway…

I recently contacted my teacher and found out through her (in dream) that our test was postponed… I had no way of knowing that since I skipped class the day before… and I didn’t really expect it to be…
so…

what was it? astral magick? Telepathy? Retreiving info from the collective unconscious?

I’m leaning toward telepathy.

I’ve gotten my friend to contact me over aim, too.

and well I from time to time instruct my friends to email when I think they might be real.

None of my friends other than a teacher I know are lucid dreamers though, and I don’t think she’d be so daring as to contact me even if I told her to and she remembered it.

Unless I impacted her unconsciously to desire to contact me and she didn’t realize why.

But I’m asking myself the same questions… which dreams are objectively real, which aren’t… if I meet a real person do our combined lucidities (or lacks of) mesh and form our current environment? Or does the dominant (most lucid) mind take that person into his world? Can you enter someone non lucid’s dreams ala Freddy Krueger and mess with them?

How do you know?

How on earth do you know?

I am sure that there is a mix of it, at this point, though.

that’s what I think too, that and remote viewing within a dream

I’ve found two ‘obe portals’ in NDs but just before deciding to go through I woke sigh

on this reoccuring scenario that i experience:
like i said earlier does it always involve beings [most of the
time they look human] coming through portals into this world.
for the reason i dont know they seem hostile and start
fighting. the whole atmosphere feels apocalyptic [ie: the end
/ transition of this world]. though it is a dream it seems that
the physical world and the dream [or astral] world has become
one. i am able to fly, teleport and do other kinds of magic.

to make it more visual, here is one of those dreams:
a friend of mine and me stand on the balcony behind our
house. we both realise that this is the situation we have been
living towards: nibiru [planet x] rises above the horizon
illuminating everything in red light. we smile at each other.
suddenly, however, there appear lots of small spheres
everywhere which extent and become portals. we rush inside
the house and try to awake my brother and his friends but
they are not interested / dont believe us. when we realise that
they are doomed [in the hallway between the rooms] portals
open and people [if i remember correctly they actually looked
the same as we did - i mean - exactly the same; like twins]
with knives come towards us trying to kill us. we shoot lightbeams
which destroy them and fly through the window out the house
trying to evade more of these beings. however this is very difficult
as we soon realise standing on the streets with more and more
people coming out of the portals attacking us… which fight
we eventually lose … which was the end of this dream.

im not lucid in those dreams in the sense of that i am consciouss
of that it is actually a dream, it is rather that im lucid thinking
this is reality! these dreams are so vivid… so real, that i wont
realise before waking that they are dreams.
ive been experiencing these dreams since i was a little kid in
a lot of different variations: different locations, different beings
from these knive-carrying clones over skeleton armies to
extreme powerful magicians.

dunno what else to say, but
i just remembered something: anyone ever read the riftwar
saga by raymond feist? would be an interesting question asking
him if he got the idea from these kind of dreams…

A YAM RAM MAM KHAM BRUM DU

watchers…

I remember one touching dream… In the final chapter, I found myself on this empty road, surrounded by grassy plains, it was dark must have been around 11 or 12 pm…

All around me are twenty, thirty or maybe even more, eerie DC’s. They weren’t openly aggressive or anything, in fact they barely did anything. Yet they gave out this strange feeling, and their expressions where blank, almost as if they had no faces, well really as if they had no personality whatsoever…

Well they just stared at me with wide open eyes and pointed all in the same direction, towards the open fields… Suddenly I got a close up of one of them, staring me straight in the eyes. Their I got that feeling at its most, I was staring into a living robot! Without uttering a sound this DC pointed upwards, towards the sky…

I looked upwards and saw a cloudy night, the clouds where moving swiftly across the sky. Suddenly a clearing opened in the sky, and a bright full moon shone over me. I felt this immense clarity and understanding. I knew what I had to do! I had to reach my destination!!

Looking down from the sky I saw that the edge of the road was spanned by this 6 foot wall, all around me these fearsomely mute DC’s began gathering, some where sitting atop the wall, feet dangling…

They where all pointing to a location behind the wall. I exerted my will, and in a way I found myself teleported to the other side of the wall. I didn’t dare look back, I couldn’t face those DC’s any longer.

Before me the plain had transformed into a forest, the trees where spread out, and made of STONE! Without warning I was pulled out of my body, and in third person I zoomed out, as if I had flown out of the atmosphere… In this view I traveled a distance, (I was being shown the destination, this I ‘knew’ somehow). This awesome black mountain loomed into view (the ?secret? was here!)

I blinked and once more I found myself standing with the petrified forest before me… I began crossing, and during what seemed ages I played this mind game of almost reaching the horizon and being teleported back to the start… The endless loop, I couldn’t cross the forest!!!

Through dream logic I assessed the situation and conjured a small jet plane, which ‘logically’ would enable me to cross the forest… I reached the base of the mountain, this terrible feeling of urgency, of feeling that I must see the ‘event’ in time, I must not miss it once more?!

A digital timer appeared in one of my views (now this is hard to explain, and wierd. Their are times in dreams where you have your first person view, but in a unexplainable way you also have a third person view… Yet at the same time?? Impossible to explain…) well the timer gave me 2 minutes 30 seconds to reach the top…

I struggled, the feeling of impending destiny, or however those feelings in dreams might be put into words, washed over me…

At the last possible moment, 5 seconds left I made it over the final ridge. What happened next left me in such a state I can not describe…

Atop the mountain was a sun, small yet incredibly giant?! Without warning the moon from the sky dropped down and circled this sun. I was breathless, mindless!! I was presencing something beyond comprehension… The moon orbited a couple of times and slowed… It was than that it eclipsed the sun. Everything went that solar eclipse black, and the flares, the fire of the corona or outline began to burn brightly!

It was than that in a way I cannot recreate with my thinking mind, I understood, the life? the something amazing, the secret maybe or answer? lay not in the sun or the moon, the obvious, yet in the outlines?? When all else was darkened, dampened the true light, flame would shine?!!!

(I understand some parts might be hard to picture, it is frustrating trying to explain and define images, scenes and feelings you experience in dreams… I woke up in ‘awe’ that day, i was not numb yet wordless, speechless for well past lunch… The rest of the week I couldn’t think of anything else, those last feelings of understanding of universal change, of somehow in your dream grasping the understanding of existance… I had never kept serious DJ in the past, but upon awaking from this dream I wrote 5 pages, I have sketches of scenes, descriptions of exact emotions and moments… (Much too long, or boring to post here in the forum )

I can say that dreams of this type, I have only had several times… It’s amazing how intense and ‘alien’ to waking emotions dream feelings can be…

thanks for the patience and
sweet dreams

in my childhood i used to have hallucinations/visions
when i had high fever. the one i can remember the most
is what you described with the sun. i used to see
a sphere in front [about the size of an apple], but when
i tried to hold it it became infinite large so i screamed
because it was too heavy for me [or the planet!] not
to be crushed under the weight, while at the same time
it became so small that you couldn’t even see it anymore.
i couldnt cope with that… like tetsuo in ‘akira’… -_-

would you mind posting the drawings?

MA A

I’ll need to get them scanned but sure…

Now don’t expect a great work of art, I tried to grasp the perspective and positioning, I wish I could really paint the image so to convey the actual feeling, but alas I am no artist.

I wouldn’t be so quick to declare shared dreaming as fact. True, we’ve had a decent number of potential shared experiences, but with anything of this nature, you have to assume there’s a lot of exaggeration going on from both parties, who (perhaps subconsciously) really, really want it to be as conclusive as possible.

It seems most likely to me that dreams are the exclusive product of an individual mind. This is evident in the way they resemble waking imagination, but with a larger degree of clarity and involvement (as you’d expect with the release of conscious attachment to the real world). Does this mean the people you imagine right now upon closing your eyes are also real, and exist in a parallel dimension?

From my experience, it isn’t viable that characters and objects in a dream exist outside the boundaries of my imagination. Particularly when you consider how dependent they are on your existing knowledge and experience. This is also apparent in the way they change to align with your train of thought (more noticeable in LDs, but evident in all forms of dreaming). It also coincides appropriately with the physical activity that can be witnessed when observing a dreaming mind using the necessary equipment. There doesn’t seem any logical way a dream can exist beyond the dreamer.

Anyway, that’s just my non-refundable 2 cents.

i met tenzin wangyal rinpoche [author of 'tibetan yogas of dream and sleep]
on the weekend and asked him about this.
he replied that there are many different planes in
the dream world with the one, which solely our mind produces, just
being one of them.

EclipseFire: what happened to the scans?