dream characters killing

We know how their character was - do you trust historians apart from the Bible for Jesus?

It’s discernment, not finger-pointing. So you try to use ‘Christian’ standards like “not judging” without understanding them, it seems.

You have not defeated any argument. Your arguments make no sense at all. You did not answer my reply, too, in any coherent, logical way.

You’re just grasping at straws it seems.

Why don’t you just quit this? It’s useless.

Oneiromancer what do you think you want to do???

Convince everyone to think the same way like you do.
This is extremely childish and will only send people away from this forum,
in the end.

milod is judging me obviously as well as my faith.

The ‘garbage’ you called is part of my faith (check out your catechism) and I even copied parts of it here. IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE POPE FYI!

I respect your beliefs and nowhere did I say otherwise. You keep putting words in my mouth. No way to debate…

About venial sin leading to mortal sin. I quote… The Pope. He wrote that in the catechism, as did most saints, even philosophers. St Augustine did too.
Nice guy that one. Really. He wrote that it did too. Why don’t you go all out and attack him now. Feel better?

So please ask the Pope to do the research if you feel like but he did do the research plus he’s infallible on these matters.

I do not need the research or the proof though it exists. I have faith, so thank you once more - don’t feel sorry for me. I do feel sorry for you if you refuse God’s mercy and love however.

Don’t bring up stuff which is not the teaching of Christ or the Church because you only look more silly when you do that. As if Christ ordered people to kill.

Well gee there is an unbiased source.

My REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE working with real people proves your statement to be completely untrue. I do not require a study, I see it and experience things for my self. I have a mind of my own and can think and observe things for my self. Where as all you can do is turn to a page in a book a quote scripture will I could do that as well and it proves nothing. You appear to have no experience to draw on to prove your arguments.

The only person here doing that is you.

No, at least not compleatly. Not without critically questioning the information and sourse of the info etc.

Where is this great proof you keep talking about ??? So far you have not proved anything !!!

To quote our dear friend, Mercutio: “A plague o’ both your houses!”

I wish you guys would quit this incessant arguing! When is enough enough for you? Who keeps monitoring these DC-threads-turned-religious-debate loops and doesn’t lock them? At this point, we are far from the topic and the ranting keeps going. “Break the cycle. . .” SOMEBODY be brave enough to say, “Okay. You’ve said your piece and I’ve said mine. Nice chatting with you.” and be DONE with it all? Being the bigger person is having the ability to let go.

Or one of the mods be brave and give them both warnings for posting off-topic religious posts that no longer has nothing to do with the main topic (if they ever did) - a mod has already cleaned this topic once and yet you STILL continue to post off-topic religious posts - in my eyes that is straight up warning street.

Now are you going to act mature like grown ups, or do i have to send you both to bed without supper?

As for the actual topic (if anyone remembers what that was about) I think killing dream characters is a perfectly HEALTHY thing to do, in dreams we can release that frustration which has built up through out the day in a safe and controlled way. After all who gets hurt? No one.

Violent dreams and violent art/games/movies etc., does not breed violence it never has and never will. Violent art has always breed from violent life, not the other way around releasing frustrations in dreams through killing/harming imaginary people is perfectly natural and perfectly safe. Not doing so and bottling all these frustrations up is what causes people to act violently in real life granted there are many other ways to releave that built up agression, many people find sports a good release.

Now killing dream characters for fun (or video games) is totally different to doing it in real life. The only people that would kill in real life because they did in a dream/game are those with extremely low morality and conscience, in which case they would probably if killed eventually anyways. Those who find dream killing fun, that are of perfectly sound mind, do so because they know there are no consequences and therefore need not worry.

“ROMEO: Courage, man; the hurt cannot be much.”

[color=indigo]I agree completely that killing dream characters is a fun and healthy thing to do MOST of the time. But the above statement is wrong. Try telling it to the parents whos kids died while another kid shot them, influenced completely by games. He got so obsessed with it, he did it IRL. Sometimes it CAN breed violence, and it already has done. But this does rarely happen, and in most cases the person/s it has affected already has psychotic problems. Healthy people can tell the difference between waking reality and fantasy. But there are many people out there who can’t. So my opinion is: if you are completely sure you are sane, do it. If not…then…don’t shoot me?[/color]

Fair point but i did say The only people that would kill in real life because they did in a dream/game are those with extremely low morality and conscience, in which case they would probably if killed eventually anyways. I should have really added psychotic disorders in there too but it’s 3:11 am lol leave me be

exactly. People with psychotic problems are very impressionable even non-violent things can cause them to commit violent acts so to say it’s purely down to violent games/movies would be a little inaccurate, it’s just in the aftermath people say “i was playing this game/watching this movie” and people stop listening to the rest. That said even pacman could be concidered “violent”

I would genuinely be intersted in finding out how many violent crime were committed “because of voilent games/movies” where the guilty party was totally sane and of stable mind however or at least of the age of 15. - this also includes those who aren’t sociopathic.

I’d be more interested in knowing why they allowed them to play violent games anyways. Children and psychotics are the two most impressionable minds and a psychotic child allowed to view/play anything remotely psychotic is just asking for trouble.

You raise a very good point, though perhaps it’s a little more complicated than that. Simulated violence is a great way to relieve tension, and have a bit of fun without the severe consequences. At the same time, though, the argument could be made that you’re subconsciously teaching yourself to handle particular situations inappropriately. I know it’s unlikely that an avid video game enthusiast would absent-mindedly ram someone off their moterbike because they were so used to doing it in Vice City, but the effects could be more subtle.

Consider the use of simulated violence as a form of stress relief. The participant is essentially training themself to use violence (simulated or otherwise, the aggression is there) as a means to relieve the tension. This association between tension (anxiety, stress, anger, etc) and violence, may intrude on the person’s general attitude when dealing with realistic problems. They probably won’t reach for the 12 guage, but they may tackle the situation aggressively as they’re used to in a virtual environment.

I don’t necessarily agree with the above, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I think saying so and so did (pick your action) because he/she watched too may horror movies playing games or what ever, is just a way for people to rationalize there behavior. As a society we want to believe that is true. No, we have to believe it is true. Because what other explanation can there be. To me it is the equivalent of the twinkie defense. First you have a crime now you create a excuse. People have been committing acts of violence long before there were violent TV or games.

I have used my dreams to vent out my frustrations and found it to be very relieving. Even fun and I feel more peaceful afterward. It certainty does not cause me to commit real acts of violence. I believe that Lucid Dreaming is a safe place for people to freely express there feelings and fantasies with out worrying about real life consequences or restraints. It may even be helpful. I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if people who have problems with anger could use lucid dreaming to help control there problems.

sno_isulli [edit to correct sp]

Well said

Your right. I have no idea why I felt I should reply to his post. It was compleatly OT and I apologize. I should have just ignored him or referred him to the thread for those who wish to continue the religious debate.

I noticed you never seem to get her name right. Just think “Illusions” backwards.

gasp I never noticed! sno_isulli! What a great name!

I’d like to point out that children are not born with a conscience and therefore violent media is VERY dangerous for them be exposed to.

All it takes is just halfway crappy parents and you could have a very problematic kid.

Kids are not likely to recreate violence they see in tv if they see consequences (such as someone being punished for being violent) however if there are no consequences (AND WHEN ARE THERE ON TV? Some guy shoots a bunch of drug dealers and the chief slaps him on the back and gives him a promotion!) they are somewhat more likely to repeat it, and if they are praised for being violent, the child is MUCH more likely to act out what he sees.

The problem herein lies that because our society is so stupid, we really do praise violence in a lot of circumstances, like “it’s okay for a cop to beat a guy that ran form him, he had it coming!” or “people deserve to be raped in jail!” or “our soldiers are good and doing God’s work by killing grandmas in Iraq” etc… we live in a society that glorifies violence in media.

For a child that doesn’t know any better (AND BY DEFAULT NONE OF THEM DO) this is a horribly dangerous thing.

Kids don’t have senses of right or wrong, I mean, that is painfully obvious, most kids for example (via brainwashing) think that drug users are “losers” and deserve to be in jail, deserve to be shot by the police… etc…

Morals? Common sense. No. kids are inherently “stupid” and it takes good parents (which we don’t have a lot of these days) to teach them to separate tv from reality, games from reality, and to filter out all this crap society feeds them that is completely untrue.

A child of a bigot will be a bigot. A child of a hippy will be a hippy (until public schools have their ways with him). A child of an abusive dad will probably end up picking up abusive habits (providing there is no intervention etc). A child of a violent dad will be violent.

We are breeding a bunch of psychotic kids… a study was done where children’s parents and a police officer told them what to do if they ever found a gun, and how dangerous guns are, how playing with them can kill them… then they planted unloaded (and trgiger locked) guns in their classroom… guess what the idiots did? WOW! points at friends head and pulls the trigger

ALL OF THEM played with them… even some of the girls.

Okay, and they were told what not to do and told the consequences of it…

I don’t know what my parents did “right” but they did have me believing th drug/gun propoganda, to run and tell an adult, not touch it, etc… and many times my friends would see a realistic toy gun and ask if it’s real before they played with it… so… we were raised right somehow, but that was a long time ago, and we never watched movies where people shot each other, the most violent stuff we watched was power rangers and ninja turtles.

(which do encourage violence against “bad guys”)

So yeah, something is horribly wrong here with this society… kids should be kept away form that kind of stuff until at least late childhood, and they should be taught that violence is wrong, blah blah blah… but they aren’t.

A noncaring or non-restricting parent letting his kid watch and play whatever he wants is goin to give the child a warped mind at a young age, becuase by default the childs mind is rather empty, growing up exposed to violent media and whatnot is going to be bad for him no matter what… and the permissive parenting just makes it worse.

Until the kids become somewhat mature they should be shielded form that kind of stuff, and when they see it, it should be explained to them that “things don’t work that way in real life”…

Etc… but that’s not the way it is.

I understand what you are trying to say (I think) though I don’t really understand what it has to do with the topic. So before I reply to what I think you are getting at. Would you explain how it applies to the topic: killing dream characters. I am not being picky and I think I know where you are going. I am just asking for clarification. I don’t want to misinterpret your words.

Damn, they found out! I’m outta here. . .

I thank my brother for the “backwards flippy” idea. His TN_Adrom screen name made no sense to me until he said it was: mordant backwards. That kid. . .

someone should make a topic about how how topics never stay on topic, and see how long it takes that topic to get off topic… hmm… that’s a good idea: the off topic topic

anyway, i know i said i was done w/ this thread, but i deemed holy reality’s post worthy of a response, even thought it was a bit off topic

milod, you asked how holy reality’s thread relates to DC killing, i’m gonna go out on a limb and offer a hypothesis:

perhaps it’s early exposure to violence when we were young and impressionable, that caused us to grow up to think that violence was an acceptable way to solve problems. i’m reminded of growing up watching he-man, transformers, spiderman etc. they were “good guys”, but they didn’t use good negotiating tactics to defeat their opponents.

i may be reaching with that hypothesis and holy reality’s post was just plain off topic… but i’m gonna respond anyway

=> holy reality, i definitely agree that a conscience is a construct of society (unless that wasn’t your claim when you said that children don’t have a conscience yet, in which case i am stating that society creates consciences as my claim) but i definitely do not agree that children will automatically grow up to reflect the environment that they were raised in

example: growing up, i had a friend who cussed like a sailor, his dad cussed like a sailor, and his mom cussed… albeit, not quite like a sailor. my friend’s little sister (who was about 6 or 7)… i’d never heard a single explitive come out of her mouth at all… i always thought that was the most amazing thing.

also, i don’t think it is at all fair to say that simply because kids haven’t devoloped a sense of right and wrong that they are stupid, even if you did put “stupid” in quotes.

also, i think kids some sense of fantasy and actuality, i don’t think you give them enough credit, but then again i’m reminded of another debate i had w/ you when it was revealed you believe everything is causally determined… i think that’s a rather pessimistic view, but now i’m getting really off topic

it was already being discussed, i just might have been a bit late…

anyways…

oneiromancer: "example: growing up, i had a friend who cussed like a sailor, his dad cussed like a sailor, and his mom cussed… albeit, not quite like a sailor. my friend’s little sister (who was about 6 or 7)… i’d never heard a single explitive come out of her mouth at all… i always thought that was the most amazing thing. "

Did you live with her? Perhaps she was taught that “We are allowed to say bad words but you aren’t…” or she learned it gets her in trouble at school… or maybe through punishment she learned that they were “grown up words” or something…

I mean it’s like, you explain to kids that you are old enough to drink alcohol but they aren’t, and how it’s dangerous for them and can kill them, and well… I haven’t seen very many 5 year old alcoholics.

In an attempt to directly tie this into dreaming, obviously violent dreams can be sparked by violent media… I don’t know whether I’d consider that a problem or not unless they bother you… and well this was just to kind of illustrate how violent content (lucid dream, game, movie) can indeed effect the mind and make you more violent.

Not to blame music but the angsty kids that commit acts of violence never tend to listen to 'N Sync… why is that? You could say they were prone to violence and therefore drawn to violent music… but I mean… I like “violent” music to a degree (providing there is a point to it) and I’m not too prone to violence… so…

You know, you get in the cycle of falling in love with violent media (or in this case going on killing sprees frequently while lucid) and well as I’ve already said I think it can start a downward spiral.

We can’t really apply violent lucid dreams to kids, since most kids aren’t good at LDing and if a kid is violent at a young age, it probably isn’t his fault unless there is something wrong with his brain.

But I made that reply because two other people were already discussing various forms of violence we are exposed to, and the effect it has on children… I saw someone say something about a kid not having a conscience as if it was the kids fault, and pointed out that you are not born with a conscience, it is formed into you by someone or society.

holy reality

Since my early child hood I was a horror / action movie addict. I mean I could probably name quite a few old horror movies that you most likely never heard of and they were actually scary. Now that did not make me go out and commit acts of violence or cause nightmares or any thing like that.

Again in our desperate need to find a reason why violent people act the way they do we look back and say he/she watched “bad” movies so that must be it. I do not buy any of it. TV, games, and music do not cause violent behaviors. Even in children.

Sorry holy reality, I buy your circumstances argument’s. But, I don’t buy the TV and games argument. We (including children) are not that weak willed or stupid.

Yes they are and studies show it.

Everything affects us. (the question then is “how much”? and it largely varies)

Example, you are listening to a slow boring song on the radio, then something exciting/heavy comes on, you get energized, you feel like speeding, or you do speed.

I’m sure we’ve all been there. I mean the very nature of being alive is stimulus/response, stimulus/response, violent movies affect you, romance movies affect you, documentaries affect you, everything affects you.

There are an equal number of studies that say the opposite.

Many defense lawyers have tried to blame TV when representing defendants who were charged with murder or other violent crimes. They mostly fail because there is no unbiased scientific proof either way.

A person who is intent on committing violent acts will do so. A tv show or a game is not going to cause someone to snap and go out and hurt people.

I think it’s a little shortsighted to stop there. You have to go back a little further and ask the question of what caused them to become intent on committing those acts in the first place. It’s easy to say “that person is just violent”, but I don’t believe anything at all can happen with justified cause. It might not be movies or games that provoke such a detrimental attitude, but it must be something. Upbringing, imbalance of natural chemicals, something.

Form my point of view, it isn’t reasonable to suggest that people will act in a way they weren’t influenced to.